Sports Karate vs Original Karate

Discussion in 'Karate' started by shotokanster, Aug 5, 2011.

  1. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    The hand does have relevance. It is hitting the other side of the head so you end up with a sandwich type effect with the kick. This is what you would do with a lighter crescent kick (e.g. not a power kick) but a faster closer in crescent kick. The sandwich effect is like when you pull someone using your hands into your knee. So with the left hand it slaps the side of the opponent's head at the same time the crescent kick slaps the other side of the head. This is not a power kick variation but one for close in speed that can stun and even knock out.

    The elbow following the crescent kick has many applications but the one I see most common in my neck of the woods is that you grab one arm of the opponent, you use your crescent kick to kick the side of their face and come over the top of the arm, putting them in an arm bar (e.g. straightening the arm). This breaks their posture so that the lean forward and the elbow then comes to back of the head or available target. IME.

    Here is a representation of some of the concepts. You have a hand smashing the face (although not the opposite but same side hand) to get the sandwich effect. You also have the grabbing of the hand combined with a crescent kick. And you can see the elbow at the end after the kick. Now there are not the exact variations I mentioned above in the first two paragraphs, but the concepts are the same.

    [ame=""]Tai Chi Chen Taiji Application - Whirlwind Kick - YouTube[/ame]
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  2. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    That sounds like total fracking BS.
  3. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Not too many people practice crescent kicks that way, it isn't a way I prefer either. However, my Goju-ryu instructor had a brother in another form of karate (I believe) that did use a lot of close in crescent kicks. I mean crescent kicks from less than a foot from the opponent. It would be like a hook punch for a boxer but with the foot. So I can see where there is use for a close in crescent kick.

    The vital points are the chin and the brain stem to be more exact with the said sandwich effect. The hand strikes across the chin at a downward 30 degree angle as the foot/heel strike the back of the head along the brain stem.

    It is total BS for me as I can't see that happening in a real situation with much chance of actually hitting the targets. However, for some that practice it like second nature, they might be able to pull it off as a good surprise from 12 inches away.

    Edit: I just remembered that it was often ax kicks they used, not strictly crescent kicks. So shoulder was also a target.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  4. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    I'd go easy on him, this friend of mine who said that is a brown belt who is just learning bassai dai and tekki shodan as well.

    He is a yondan.

    Could be yep.
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    I think Bruce Lee could pull it off.

    [ame=""]Bruce Lee's Chinese Kung Fu: Crane Form - YouTube[/ame]

    P.S. Blade, adding the other hand to sandwich the target doesn't add power, it adds effect. Kind of like if you run into a brick wall. It has no give so your head takes on the shape of the wall on one side.

    Doh, I just slapped myself in the ear and now it is ringing. I got to remember not to practice on myself. :(
  6. Blade96

    Blade96 shotokan karateka

    My yondan friend also had this to add:

    So far, all that I can gather is that it represents actually kicking something. Maybe a left over from the Chinese systems. One simple application is that the hand is grabbing an arm or part of your opponent, and then you hall off and give ...him a big ol kick some where. Also, it is implied that you are using your opponet against himself by pulling on him( like trying to tear a phone book apart, you need to use both arms, as where with one piece of paper you only need to use on hand). Of course it is easy to see where you are suppose to be hitting some one. However, what kind of sound you make and how hard you hit your hand can be told from the sound you make. Your are suppose to kick so hard that you actually slap your foot on your hand, and because you did it so hard it hurts the hand. Many people just half touch their hand to their foot and it is more like a tap than a hard impact. In kata it is a cresent kick, but in application it can be other kinds of kicks as needed.
  7. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Another possibility is that it's there just to prove that you're hitting into the target. A kick that's swinging upward or diagonally, will slide off the hand and make less of a slap so it should be clear to the person teaching that you're not sending your foot through the target on the horizontal plane. Could just be teaching aid.
  8. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I'm not sure I can add a great deal to what's already been said, but I'll try.

    I can only speak about what I regard as the classical Shorin Ryu kata:

    Naihanchi 1 & 2 (Tekki)
    Seisan (Hangetsu)
    Passai Sho & Dai (Bassai)
    Rohai (Meikyo)
    Chinto (Gankaku)
    Useishi (Gojushiho)
    Kusanku (Kanku)

    I don't really know much about the other kata that form the Shotokan canon or other styles.

    Out of all those I only count the one inward crescent kick in which the kick contacts the hand. As already said, where the contact is doesn't really matter, I believe the hand is a modern affectation.

    The above kata don't have many kicks, where they do they are almost always 'returning wave' or front snap kicks. With one possible exception there are no side thrust kicks at all. This is all consistent with my (personal) understanding of the use of kicks in Shorin Ryu - kicks are not the long range weapons seen in most Karate styles, rather they are typically used when you’ve already seized and unbalanced the opponent. Lifting your foot far off the ground in combat is not a thing to be done lightly.

    From the above you might conclude that Shorin Ryu does not use, say side or round kicks, but that’s not entirely true. For a start there is one view that a kick in kata can be interpreted simply as <insert kick here> with the type of kick not being specified. The manner of stepping in the classical kata can also be considered kicking - ‘any step could be a kick, any kick could be a step’.

    Side and round kicks are typically taught in Shorin Ryu but classically I believe these would generally be snapping rather than thrusting or swinging versions.

    Personally the kicks I favour are:
    Knee (straight or round)
    Front snap
    Front stamp

    These are the ‘20% I use 80% of the time’. The ‘80% I use 20% of the time’ are largely side/round thrusting/swinging kicks.

    Back to crescent kick. Other than a round knee (it’s a given that I’ll be holding the opponent), I don’t really have much use for it. I have seen one other possibly useful variation, not in Shorin Ryu but it fits the kata move well: you’re holding the assailant’s left wrist in your left hand having knocked them to their knees or lower. Swing the right foot over their shoulder, kick the head and turn to apply an armbar to their grabbed arm. Its not really me but with practice I dare say I could get more comfortable with it. Its key though that you’ve already knocked the opponent down. This is the coup de grace, attempting it against a standing opponent is folly IMO.

    Although only appearing once in classical kata with the kick to the hand there are several other instances where the leg swings round using the body’s momentum (through 180 or even 360 degrees): near the end of Rohai and Chinto for example, and also in Kusanku immediately before dropping your hands on to the floor (the sequence is quite different from the Itosu versions). I’ve seen these done differently, eg. with a side kick (Rohai) or knee (Chinto) but they can all be done ballistically with the feel (if not the look) of an inward crescent kick. There are even instances of front kicks that precede a turn that could be thought of in a similar, eg. at the end of the first line in Seisan. This harks back to a recent thread I think Fish started about an unusual stamping variation of the kick and turn in Seisan. Personally I think there’s more mileage in these ideas than there is in swinging the foot (or inner aspect of the shin) in from the outside, a la mikazukigeri.

    In short, I see in mikazukigeri itself another instance of technique modification to suit the goals of dynamic and/or visually impressive movements at the expense of practical application. But that said, the classical kata were passed on by a series of people who evidently saw some martial value in swinging the leg across the body in a manner that is related to the modern version of the kick.

    I don’t know if that’s the kind of ‘rambling’ you were looking for, but those are my thoughts for what they’re worth.

  9. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    I honestly don't think he could... or would. Wasn't Bruce's philosophy about being efficient?

    It's one of the most ridiculous tactics I've ever heard of. Even if you could land it you'll be hugely vulnerable and I can't see it having any effect at all. At that range you shouldn't be dicking around with fanciful BS like that as you'll end up on your **** IMO

    Maybe I'm wrong but I would be shocked to all hell if I saw someone pull that off and for it to actually have an effect in a live senario without immediately being floored :dunno:

    That sounds plausible.
  10. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Northern Kung styles influenced by Shaolin seem to have a lot of fancy high kicks. The particular form that Bruce Lee demonstrated in that video included the crescent kick with his hand coming in and slapping from the other side.

    The ask was an explanation for this move which was the slap across the face or side of head with the kick hitting the back of the head. I agree with you Killas that it doesn't seem practical. Like I said before I'm more into the crescent kick that steps through the head or alternatively the crescent kick that goes into an omoplata.

    For the rest of you all... here is another video showing the sandwich effect with a crescent kick and hand. This is not the same crescent kick (this is the "outside" crescent kick), but the concept is the same.

    [ame=""]Kung Fu : Double Outside Crescent Kick - YouTube[/ame]
  11. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    I've known Taekwondo people who could pull off a powerful inward crescent kick at head height. But that's in TKD sparring with its own specific rules and limitations. Just because its theoretically possible doesn't mean you should choose to do it.

    I've got to agree with that wholeheartedly.

  12. Smitfire

    Smitfire Cactus Schlong

    But ending up on your **** is when the BJJ starts! Game on! :)
  13. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Well, if you watch Mirko Filipovic, his head kicks tend to end like a crescent kick but the driving mechanic is all roundhouse. I'm inclined to agree with Killa here. I'd say it's a scoring technique that evolved out of botched axe kicks if I were to throw out a guess.

    The newbie-flail naturally guides the hand into the foot pretty consistently when people are learning it or just being lazy. My guess is it's something that's crept in either through newbies being allowed to continue it, or someone watching a superior being lazy and running with it. It's a terrible thing to internalize if you actually mean to kick people.
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  14. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    kyokushin guys regularly KO each other with mikazuki-geri at punching range, FWIW.
  15. Killa_Gorillas

    Killa_Gorillas Banned Banned

    Not in the fashion we're dicussing though?
  16. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    then again kyokushin does not employ hand attacks to the head in competition. in most instances of foot slapping crescent kicks in kata, there is an initial deflection or parry with the slapping hand. nothing wrong with moving someone's arm out of the way before you try to kick them in the face, as far as i'm concerned ;)

    perhaps you're taking the technique too literally. kihon is stupidly abstract, and has gone through decades of permutations and chinese whispers. hell, the technique is present in kung fu, and what my kung fu sifu showed us was kuzushi with the hand, sweep with the crescent kick, even though the basic technique is even bigger and flashier than the one done in karate.
  17. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Heya Mike.

    The original ask was what did the move in the kata represent for application. Of course kata is often more generic movements so they can represent many things that use similar body mechanics.

    However, specifically I mentioned the application to be that of the hand slapping the face (eyes) or across the chin (cross face) combined with the crescent kick hitting the back of the head (brain stem). This creates a sandwich effect. As part of setting up the technique, the opponent is turned sideways to you so that you can kick to the back of their head.

    With that said, one of Blade's peers said the slapping of the hand was to add power and then you mentioned that TKD can inward crescent kick with power. My original post was intended to say that the kick is not for power but is a pressure point kick... it is like clapping your hands so the action is one of relaxed speed and accuracy.

    So the technique is one of the crescent kick for speed and accuracy, not power, combined with the slap to the face. A lighter, faster hit will be more effective than trying to power hit at the cost of speed and accuracy, since this is a pressure point striking technique. IME.
  18. Mike Flanagan

    Mike Flanagan Valued Member

    A moment of epiphany (on my part)!

    Maybe its a bit like hikite, in that once (long ago, and possibly in a galaxy far, far away) somebody said to a questioning student that pulling the non-punching hand back to the hip increases the power of the punch. Of course the teacher was thinking about holding the opponent's wrist while punching, thereby increasing power with a push-pull effect. Whereas the student went off on a tangent thinking that the retraction of the hand in and of itself (without holding on to the opponent) would increase the power of the punch.

    Maybe some teacher quite legitimately told a student that the hand/foot combination in mikazukigeri would increase power but neglected to mention that its because you're holding the opponent in place for your kick, not some biomechanical effect of the movements themselves.

    Sorry, historical fantasising over, I'll move on...

    It sounds fiddly to say the least to be honest. In self-defence I want to use techniques that are difficult for me to get wrong, not ones that are a challenging feat of flexibility, timing and accuracy all rolled into one.

    One thing that is clear in my mind is that the original kick was not head height, it was little more than waist height at most. So any application that involves kicking the head either a) requires the head be brought down to the required height, or b) is not what the kata originator intended.

  19. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    just remembered that a short and low foot slapping crescent kick is present in choy lee fut forms. will try to find a video showing this, as i've seen it done by people training CLF where i used to do northern shaolin.
  20. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    found it:

    [ame=""]Hung Sing Koon Choy Lay Fut - Siu Mui Fa Kuen (Small Plum Blossom Fist) - YouTube[/ame]


    note that it's also done on the jumping version. i still maintain that it's likely to be simply to signify that there is a target there and that the leg can't follow through (unless you're some sort of pirate with a peg-leg sword or something :p), while simultaneously opening up a few possible applications, such as unbalancing+sweeping.

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