sport or martial art or both?

Discussion in 'Judo' started by judojedi, Nov 26, 2003.

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in your opinion, is judo a sport, a martial art or both?

  1. sport

    10 vote(s)
    17.2%
  2. martial art

    11 vote(s)
    19.0%
  3. both

    37 vote(s)
    63.8%
  1. Scaramouch

    Scaramouch Lost Soul

    IMO its both.

    I have done Judo as a kid and JuJitsu as an adult. The Judo techniques are exactly the same as the throws and locks/chokes taught in JuJitsu. If you perform a Judo technique in the street it is exactly the same as the JuJitsu technique. The throws will hurt just as much, the chokes will choke and the locks will break bones/joints if properly applied - its just in the street you don't let go if the guy taps out and you don't have soft mats to land on. Therefore IMO Judo is a very effective MA.

    The great thing about Judo is that you can do the techniques full speed and power in the dojo without excessive injury to your partner - therefore Judo lends itself to being a "full-contact" sport. And for this reason a lot of other MA-ists have a lot of respect for Judokas as both TKD and Karate competition techniques could rarely be described as "full-contact" and effective from a self-defence perspective (but thats a whole different subject..........).
     
  2. TAPOUT

    TAPOUT New Member

    im soon gonna have my black belt cant even remember how long ive been in it and i belive judo is an art and if kano was still around he'd throw you on your head for even asking that question
     
  3. Jim

    Jim New Member

    There are 2 classes in my area, one is a sport Judo club and the other (mine) is a self defence / close quarter combat class. It's all a matter of why you do it and how you approach it.
     
  4. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Jim,

    Do you get much cross polination between the two classes? Or do nights clash?

    Col
     
  5. TheMachine

    TheMachine Valued Member

    definitely both
     
  6. Jim

    Jim New Member

    No cross trainers so far. His students all only want competition and mine only want self defence so... I have attended one of his classes and helped out... *cough* taught it *cough* ...because he asked me to come, but he charged me for it and I was a little unhappy about it so I haven't spoken much to him and avoided other 'invitations' since.

    Still undecided about what I'm going to do next year. Odds are we'll be sharing the same venue and mat but on different nights. There may be some cross pollination then, but we'll see.
     
  7. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    art or way

    I apologize if i ask basic questions but what is the difference between a martial art and the martial way and the difference between sport based judo and combat or self defence based judo.thank u.
     
  8. Knight_Errant

    Knight_Errant Banned Banned

    There is no difference. martial arts and combat sports are one and the same thing.
     
  9. notquitedead

    notquitedead used to be Pankration90

    I don't think of tai chi as a combat sport. ;)
    ----------------------------------------

    I think of judo more as a combat sport, and group it with boxing, kickboxing, wrestling, BJJ, sambo, MMA, etc.

    However, if asked if those things I listed are martial arts or not, I would say that they are. It's just that those things are trained more like sports (competitively) instead of focusing on other traditional things (like kata). I know judo has kata, but I've never heard of any instructor who makes you do kata more than randori.

    I also think training like you are doing a sport will help you achieve results faster. :D

    I guess what I'm trying to say is that all combat sports are martial arts, but not all martial arts are combat sports (...or something like that). :confused:
     
  10. Dave Rees

    Dave Rees Old Git!

    I studied Judo for just over 3 years got to blue belt (2nd kyu) I studied it for the art, I did enter quite a few competitions, but wasnt that good, mind you the last competition I entered The BJC National Grade & Vets I won a bronze, I think it was because I knew it was going to be my last one & I relaxed more!! I always looked at it as an ART but that was just my opinion.
     
  11. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    the difference between a martial art and a martial way is:
    a martial *ART* shapes the practicioner with the techniques whereas a martial *WAY*'s techniques are shaped by the practicioner.
    for example, judo is a *way*, this is known by the fact it ends in 'do' which means *way*, if you go to a judo club you get taught ju-jutsu techniques but are encouraged to modify them to suit yourself (kata excluded).
    ju-jutsu is an *art* if you go to a ju-jutsu club, you are expected to do the techniques exactly right.

    these statements may not be true for all clubs of course, but thats the theory.

    sport based judo is VERY different from judo when used as self defence. if you watch the olympics or any contest's you will see alot of gamesmanship. fake attacks, playing for a foul etc. sports judo you can usually rely on the rules of the sport, i.e. no punching, kicking, biting etc so you can fight accordingly, the defensive ball for example. do the defensive ball in a self defence situation, you'll get stomped on.

    side note: martial ways often, if not 100% of the time just get called martial arts cos it sounds cooler. who boasts about being a martial wayist? this often leads to confusion and even some dictionaries list martial ways as martial arts.
     
  12. Humblebee

    Humblebee PaciFIST's evil twin

    cheers

    Judojedi,thank you.
     
  13. Aegis

    Aegis River Guardian Admin Supporter

    I disagree with you on that one. Compare Iaido to Iaijutsu/Kenjutsu. The original arts allow a lot more freedom than the rather rigid modern iaido forms. The jujutsu varies from place to place of course. The old schools will tend to teach a lot of kata-like movements, but jujutsu at its highest level is about acting in the most suitable manner for the situation, not about flalwlessly executing a certain technique.

    Mostly it depends on the teacher though.

    Probably because they are still a martial art. -Jutsu and -Do are both ways of saying "art" but have slightly different meanings in Japanese, so we use different words. Both would translate as martial art, as would several other definitions. I can't remember who first posted it, so I can't give credit in this case, but they mentioned that "martial art" covers 4 different phrases in Japanese, including -jutsu and -do arts.
     
  14. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    well i don't know about iaido/iaijutsu, but i'm sure the same rule applies that the difference is 'jutsu' is all about technique and 'do' is all about the practicioner. maybe modern-day the only distincion is the name and syllabus of whatever association governs your club.
    BTW the jutsu/do definitions are not mine, i merely agree with them as they seem to tally with my experience so far.

    we'll have to agree to dis-agree. IMO the definition about "martial art" is a modern day one and subject to modern day generic tendancies. like calling any hard style form out of okanowa and japan karate. also some styles from korea and china just get classed as karate.
     
  15. FortuneFaded

    FortuneFaded Feel my Squirrely wrath!

    i'm quite disapointed with the 'sport' side of judo i.e in the olympics, its so boring to watch XD, i mean come on, one person is knocked onto the ground and Matte is yelled... wheres the fun of two girls rolling trying to pin there opponent? its lost i tell ya, from what i've seen ^^
     
  16. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    The reason Olympic Judo is so boring to watch (I personally don't find it boring) is because you have two high level players not wanting to be thrown and being uber cautious. At this level if someone doesn't want to be thrown they won' be, unless they initiate first.

    Col
     
  17. judojedi

    judojedi Officer of the Crown

    yes, exactly. what your are watching in the olympics is two absolute masters playing 6, 7 or 8 moves ahead. Top players, have combinations 30 or more moves long (especially in ground work) and they just bide their time before moving into one of them. these combinations are oftern known by competitors however.
    what i'm disappointed in is the refereeing. who seen winston gordon in his third round fight? his opponent done nothing but push him out of the area so he got penalties. forgot his name but he should have been penalised for pasivitey(sp?). winston lost on han-soku-make. And georgina singleton against that belgian, the bel just stood there for 4 minutes and 30 seconds doing nothing and never got one penalty but georgie did for a fake attack! lost on a shido!
    i'm also disappointed with the lack of ground work displayed. i seen only one match won with a choke.

    EDIT: actually, i might be getting georgie singleton mixed up with someone else in the british team, but anyway you get my point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2004
  18. FortuneFaded

    FortuneFaded Feel my Squirrely wrath!

    mhh good point, several matches i've watched has being won by a counter...

    poor guiy tried an osoto gari and the other fellow picked him up and slammed him into the ground... i was shocked.
     
  19. kiaiki

    kiaiki Valued Member

    I started Judo in 1970 under a japanese trained sensei, Frank Smith. Every session included technique, randori AND application as self defence including atemi waza. THEN I could have claimed Judo as a good sport with some martial art elements. Now, I'm afraid, sport predominates - the BJA gradings seemed to get increasingly more competitive and less interested in the art - just win, win, win. In a 'freestyle' or 'randori' a good (Yoshinkan) aikidoka would defeat a similar judo player who used judo techniques, simply because the latter are retricted in trainin and thinking by the rules of a sport. Aikido has ben described as 'judo with the nasty stuff left in'. That's not a bad description of some harder styles. For me, Judo became all 'do' no 'jutsu' so I took up aikido - but a style which still had plenty of 'jutsu' martial art content.
    to define my terms - I was always taught that 'do' was a 'way' (and therefore in the dojo lots of katas and forms and emphasis on movement and philosophy) whereas 'jutsu' as the application of that way (to battle etc). :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2004
  20. judoboxer

    judoboxer New Member

    sport and martial art it involves fighting and fitness but then again so do other martial arts so should we class them as sports.
     

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