Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by BGile, Mar 5, 2007.

  1. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Thought I'd discuss these terms and the salutation. James Mitose's crest.

    For me I see it by way of James Mitose, and handed down to others who either borrowed it or just took it without a thank you very much.
    Of course it is old and like the saying's of the Buddha are borrowed also by Mitose.

    To Fall Seven Rise Eight, the term Go Shin Jutsu is another.

    Any thoughts on this? :)


    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  2. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Maybe Bhudda stole it from Mitose's family. Ever think of that?

    Last edited: Mar 5, 2007
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    :D :D

    Cute. No I have never thought of it that way. Actually what I would really like to get to, is where and when was it used and by whom prior to Mitose.

    I could do research and come up with it but thought that if we could find it together it would be better.

    I know I posted one persons opinion but maybe there are others that are as interesting?

  4. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    You can start by researching Motobu Sensei. Udunde Kempo -
    Chosei Motobu Sensei,
    Soke, Motobu-Ryu, &
    Motobu-Ryu Udunde
    I know these hand positionings were used by his father and some of the basis of his system. Hopefully Matt Barnes will see this and answer it better than i ever could.
    In Peace,
  5. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Maybe Mitose copied his saying out a book the same way he copied the material out of Motobu's book?
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The terms Spirit, Mind and Body are in conjunction with the hand positions from the Mon of Mitose. Kajukenbo uses those hand positions. Where did they get them?

  7. Matthew Barnes

    Matthew Barnes Valued Member

    Maybe he was just a huge basketball fan.

    Maybe he was just a huge basketball fan and wanted to pay homage to the source


    I was there last friday and was really tempted to get a sweatshirt.

    Either that or maybe he just loved his sake .

  8. koyo

    koyo Passed away, but always remembered. RIP.

    Whenever anyone attempts to draw me into an esoteric discussion on what is ki. I give him the same answer "fighting spirit to get downed 8 get up 9" I was told this by any number of shihan. Ki ken tai ichi means to use the spirit, body and technique as one and is a fundamental principle of traditional japanes arts (not just martial) that goes back who knows how far.Finding out who said it first will be a daunting task.

    good luck koyo
  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I have the books that were written by Motobu and I have his son's tape. I think the connection is also in the Nai Han Shi kata, but...is it before or after it got to Okinawa? That Kata was one that went in several directions and to say it came from Motobu has been mentioned and then what I have mentioned (pre) is also said. :confused: if you get picture :D

    The "Warrior Spirit" is a book that was written by John Little about Bruce Lee and his philosophies. The essence has been around for a long time and are linked with Bruce. Similar to the philosophies of Mitose, been around a long time prior to him and he just continued the teaching. Now his grandson is doing the same thing.

    I am hoping that Thomas gets that revision of is fathers book done soon, maybe he has added some information that might clairify.

    Sake has been around for a long time, I am not so sure about that particular vintner though. :D
  10. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Naihanchi (or Naifanchi) or Tekki (Shotokan) is one of the oldest kata. It's origin is unknown. It did not, however, come from Motobu. He merely popularized it because he thought it's priciples were the best for actual fighting.
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    True Dan and I am glad you explain it like that, for many have tried to make a connection to Motobu and Mitose because of the Kata.

    Lets look at it this way, Motobu was in his mid 60s and died on Okinawa in the 1944 I believe.
    Mitose was half that age at that time. If they ever met in Japan or any other location when Mitose was over there he would have been a teenager or younger. Just look at the age difference and that should explain a few things.

    For starters Motobu was of the mentality that the arts were not to be taught to children, I don't believe he taught his own son, did he?

    Motobu Ryu was not Choki Motobu's art. According to what I have read anyway. But that is another topic I'd be glad to discuss it if you want to start a thread on it.

    The term used in Kosho when referencing the Kata that Mitose taught and Kosho trains in, is called Nai Han No. I believe you can get the tape or DVD from Hanshi Bruce.


  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    “ A sixth possibility is that the Bubishi was brought to Okinawa by Uechi Kanbun (1877-1948), the founder of Uechi Ryu. The Uechi Ryu karate-do tradition tells us Uechi went to Fuzhou in 1897 where he ultimately studied Guangdong Shaolin Temple Tiger Boxing directly under master Zhou Zihe (Shu Shiwa in Japanese).
    One of Uechi Kanbun’s students, Tomoyose (Tomoyri) Ryuyu (1897-1970), an accomplished student of fighting traditions, dedicated most of his life writing an analysis of Kempo, vital point striking, and the application of Chinese herbal medicine. Entitled Kempo Karate-jutsu Hiden (Secrets of Kempo Karate-Jutsu) , the document, now owned by the Uechi family, addressed a number of articles identical to the Bubishi. Unfortunately Tomoyose died before he was able to complete this analysis. The similarities are too frequent to doubt that the Uechi family once possessed a copy of the Bubishi.” [The Bible of Karate: Bubishi, Trans. P. McCarthy Tuttle, 1995]

    In regards to the Bubishi and some of it’s precepts, it’s interesting to see what it said about fighting and relate it to Kempo today:

    • “By taking away your adversary’s balance, you will have greater opportunities for victory.”
    • “Low counters are the rule for high attacks.”
    • “If attacked from the front, consider attacking the groin.”
    • “If you want to attack the east, first move west. Never reveal your true intentions. If you decide to move in a straight line, know what is behind you.”
    • “If an adversary bites you, attack his throat right away.”
    • “Never execute a technique when off balance, as a skillful fighter will most certainly take advantage of the situation.”
    • “A superior strategist uses multi-level attacks to his advantage rather than single kicks or punches.”
    • “Maintain your balance while and after throwing the adversary as it is critically important to follow up with a finishing blow.”
    • “While an opponent’s low posture may reduce mobility and hamper his kicking skills, be careful as it enhances his hand power. Try to get inside an opponent’s high posture.”
    • “If you are taken down, make every attempt to attack the adversary’s genitals.”

    These are just some of the things from the Bushibi
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Good stuff, I have read that book (have it) and Pat M is top notch in the historical portion on Okinawan history. He and I have e-mailed quite a bit in the past but not for the last few years.
    The 4th theory is interesting on page 34. The 10th theory is good also, all of them are good, some are just better than others. :D


  14. RevIV

    RevIV Valued Member

    Matt you crack me up. When Prof. Kimo was in we went to a Japanese Rest. in Natick and there was a huge lets say -Keg - for lack of a better word of that Sake and he said the same thing. Question for you Matt, a true Japanese Mon... does it have body parts on it?
    In Peace
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    The whole "Body, mind, spirit" thing goes back to the Greeks (if not earlier). It was the model for what constituted the Gymnasium or University. They felt that one was not complete unless all three aspects were attended to. THis motto was continued in the other Western European University systems and continues to this day. Now a days, in modern universities, the "Spiritual" education is ignored, but in some there is still a physical education requirement for your degree.
  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Mitose nutriding? wha?
  17. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Now that is constructive, thanks for your input.

    Gary :)
  18. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    Gary, you have attributed a theory on well being and viewing the whole of oneself that has been in use for thousands of years, to someone who taught Kenpo in the 1930's. If that's not nutriding I don't know what is.
  19. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Negative, I believe you have missed it by quite a bit. The mentioning of how they display their salutation is one of the reasons (if you read the first post) as in the Crest (mon) of Mitose's hand positions. The idea of it being around for a very long time is a given.

  20. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    The Kosho Ryu crest is another Mitose rip off. It has no relavance to any Japanese Kamons (mons). In fact if you take it apart you could design 6-7 separate Kamons. Anyone who has ever studied "Kamons" knows this.

    So what do we have:
    "Praying Hands", common to any society that has ever worshipped a diety.
    "Fist covered by hand", common to several, if not all Chinese martial arts.
    "2 open hands forming a triangle", very common to martial arts of China, Japan, and Korea.
    The "Sho Chiku Bai", very common symbols used in Japan for hundreds of years. You can't walk into a Japanese restaurant without seeing the symbol somewhere. Most of the time for sake bottles and banners.
    And the "octagon", how original, NOT.

    So you have this crest ( I won't call it a "Kamon" because it simply dosen't fit the criteria or design requirements for a Japanese Kamon), a hodgepodge of Asian symbols tossed together to impress some unknowing book readers and students.
    And then you take the symbols and do them with your hands, like some secret society handshake. And thus the ignorant start their lifelong seach for the hidden meanings.

Share This Page