speed question

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by gnomepunter, Jun 19, 2011.

  1. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

     
  2. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Double hip is normal karate punch just like it is normal for a boxing punch. All it is doing is putting the pivot point closer to the oppositie hip and shoulder. I've been talking about proper pivot points for years ;)

    I think what we need is nidan82 to post a video of someone punching that he believes is closest to how he feels a good punch should be.

    Here is my example... look at the punches:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nhv6eDCrTY"]YouTube - ‪Mas Oyama‬‏[/ame]

    You will see the pivot points used. The pivot point is not on the spine, but on the far hip and shoulder. Although the shoulder one is hard to tell because of the angle of the camera (the way to tell is that from where the right shoulder starts, you will see after the punch that the left shoulder is NOT as far back... does not go as far back as where the right shoulder starts... this shows that the pivot point is more in the middle of the left shoulder). Rotation is still at the spines as that is anatomy... pivot point is through left hip and shoulder.

    Ah I thought this video had been removed from Youtube... but I guess good stuff can't be gone forever. Here is a better camera angle for showing the proper pivot points for the rear hand punch (pivot point is throught he opposite shoulder and hip):

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3Epr6COl-M"]YouTube - ‪Morio Higaonna Power Training of Goju-Ryu‬‏[/ame]

    I like it.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2011
  3. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    A bigger stronger karateka will hit harder thamy littler karateka
    . I post here because I do martial arts, namely boxing and a bit of shukokai. You will note that their is a boxing section on this forum, and that I have over a thousand posts.

    You are showing your ignorance here, there are a hundred people on this forum would love to tell you how wrong you are so I'm leaving it here.

    Bollocks. I bigger, faster stronger or more powerful karateka will hit harder than a weaker, slower or smaller one.
    My boxing club has fat dudes and old dudes most of which are seriously hard blokes and very good at what they do, they don't train to compete just as a hobby. Hell I've been in the ring with a 58 year old geezer who put most sparring partners to shame.
     
  4. belltoller

    belltoller OffTopic MonstreOrdinaire Supporter

    I know I'll have to give a good bit more study to what Mr. Consterdine was demonstrating here (double hip) but he seems to have worked out the statics/dynamics to an intuitive level. His punches, though very low-key on the surface, have about them the aurora of - presence - which means they are probably very powerful.

    Maximum transmission for minimum wind-up. Which goes back to the idea of chambered punches (is that what you mean by 'hikite'?). I found this post by Gene on Karate Cafe:

    "TMA practitioners typically chamber in the traditional sense (by the hip) only when practicing kata, agreement sparring and other prescribed drills. There are some practical applications for chambering a punch near the hip, such as grabbing and pulling an opponent into you as you simultaneously punch with the other (free) arm. Notice that a free-sparring match between two TMA practitioners more likely resembles a boxing match; chambers are held high for both offensive and defensive techniques. One can still generate a lot of power through proper stance, balance and hip rotation while chambering near the head. I've never seen a free-sparring match in which a combatant chambered a punch near the hip, except when their opponent is completely defenseless like following a good throw to the ground. In this case, there's no need to worry about telegraphing the punch that is about to be thrown from the hip; the opponent is unable to defend himself anyway."

    Which seems to support the tenets held by those who think that hip-chambered punches should not be considered a thing of practical value outside performing Poomse ( Kata ) as the above comes from karateka.

    Thanks for the posts from Fish, Rebel, jwt, Steve, et al on the subject, as I was wondering about that meself. Still, its hard to let go of that idea, once it gets lodged into ones thinking - if you had one and only one shot - I'd still be tempted by the idea that retracting the opposing arm, just as you delivered the palm-heel strike to the bridge of your attacker's nose, might give your strike just a wee-bit more energy behind it. These ideas are hard to give up entirely - like matters of politcal or religious thinking.
     
  5. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    belltoller,

    Proper relaxation, pivot points, etc. should be taught starting from day one... however, this is not always the case. Much of the karate movements are generic so that they can represent many different things.

    Here is how to think of hikite in the context of a punch. Hikite is NOT retracting the hand, hikite is using the opposite hand to bring yourself towards the enemy. If you think of it as retracting, that is like sending your energy backwards... this takes away from your power. If however, you pull yourself towards the enemy, then all your power goes forward.

    For example, if I use my left hand to grab on to the lapel of my opponent, then all I do is drop my left elbow to pull myself into my opponent as I punch with my right hand. This is use of hikite.

    Try an experiment on yourself, try to pull the opponent to you and punch... you will see this is very ineffective and you jam yourself as soon as your pull meets resistance. On the other hand, try just pulling yourself towards your opponent buy just dropping your elbow... your punch is not jammed by resistance. Remember, your body moves forward for power, not back.

    For pull with more range of motion, grab your opponent's sleeve with one hand and punch with the other. Again pull yourself towards the opponent, do not pull them to you... this is hikite when punching. The feel is no different than a chambered punch... edit: because it is a relaxed pull, most of it is actually moving your body forward... it is not a hard pull against resistance.

    Cheers.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  6. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hey, I found an excellent example of hikite as it applies to punching.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lT-A-xLHHNg"]YouTube - ‪Nakayama (1958)‬‏[/ame]

    Notice how Nakayama Sensei is not pulling his training partner into him except for a very little bit, the hikite is mainly staying in the same place (moving up, down, to the side, but not back). Instead, Nakayama Sensei's body moves forward.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  7. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    For me personally that's not the best use of Hikite. I don't particularly want to pull myself into someone else. That kind of approach is useful for competition scoring in my opinion, less useful for solid practical combative application in a scuffle. I want to stay fairly stable and pull them so that I destabilise them and make an unbalanced target. I rarely use hikite with punches (almost never punch) but use it a great deal when attacking with Shuto Uke.
     
  8. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Hikite is different with different techniques.

    Hikite with punches works well as I described for a few reasons. The first is that it ensures the proper pivot points. As described earlier as double hip. When the pivot point is through the left hip and shoulder, the right hip and shoulder move forward as you punch but the left shoulder and hip do not move back as much (because the body is rotating around where the pivot point is at). The second is that you are moving the opponents arm only slightly back with a small pull but mostly you are moving it down or up or to the side... what this does is not telegraph your intentions as you are effectively "moving around the sword" so you aren't giving away the vector of your attack (you aren't giving the opponent any energy to feed off of). Only a short pull at the end to "shock" the opponent as they get hit. Third is, you are preventing them from using their arm to block (if instead I did a big pull, they might be able to break free from my pull). One advantage and disadvantage, however, is that you gain a few inches of range so you have to know to punch from further away.

    Hikite with a knee or elbow technique is different, it is a guide of the opponent into your knee or elbow for a "sandwich" type effect.

    Hikite with shuto uke... hmmm... to me that isn't a pull either, IMHO. It is establishing elbow control and using that to unbalance the opponent.

    However, hikite use depends on the technique and the technique depends on the situation.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2011
  9. nidan82

    nidan82 Valued Member

    To summarise bollocks:
    A: Boxing is a martial art
    B: A Karateka is someone who 'practices kata as a hobby'
    C: Hikite is pointless, even as a form of training

    There are many things in Karate which people percieve as pointless due to a lack of understanding. To explain the finer points of a traditional martial art to someone who wants to learn to fight, with that sole intention, or compete for the benefit of their ego, is like reading Shakespeare to a toddler.
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Boxing IS a martial art - why do you say it isn't?

    Before you place head in rectum, think about Judo, Aikido, Muay Thai, Shuai Jiao, Kyudo, Iaido, Kendo and whether you class them as martial arts

    Don't try and be all smug either with your "just for ego" comment either - I don't compete so you have no argument there at all.

    Also would you consider Mikio Yahara an egotist because he competed? Or Nakayama? Or Enoeda?

    Yeah, I thought so. Try thinking before posting next time
     
  11. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    As a physician, I STRONGLY recommend AGAINST punching with weights. It would be far too easy to cause irreparable harm to yourself. The main problem is inertia. Don't even do this with wrist weights. The extra inertia can put undue strain on your elbow and shoulder joints, and also your wrist if you are using hand-held weights.

    Google "plyometrics".
     
  12. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    The "speed" that appears to come from retracting the other arm is mostly an illusion. The only way it can have any impact on the ultimate velocity of the punching arm would be from the additional turning of the shoulders and/or hips when you retract the retracting arm. In other words, it is the same as if someone pushed your shoulder from the back when you punched - there is the additional forward motion caused by the shoulders and hips moving.

    Granted, we all know that F=MA, and the additional turning of the shoulders/hips will provide some increase, but it's hardly a way to increase the ultimate speed of your punches.
     
  13. querist

    querist MAP Resident Linguist?

    If you examine the biomechanics of the spine, shoulder, and hips, you will see that you are only partly correct, Nidan. Your technique will increase the speed of that one punch, but will slow down the number of punches you can deliver in a given period of time. Your technique will certainly increase the strength of that one punch, though. It's a tradeoff. There is no way that that technique will increase the number of punches per unit time.
     
  14. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    To summarise anyone who disagrees with nidan is wrong.

    Put your straw men away, I never said it was pointless and nor did anyone I just said that it won't make him faster, whatever the benefits of the technique, getting faster makes someone faster, is learning a technique from a different martial art that has litle to no application to the styles he is training in really good advise?
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Again I ask of Nidan - would you consider Mikio Yahara an egotist because he competed? Or Nakayama? Or Enoeda?
     
  16. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    Hi Rebel

    Looks to me like we've got completely different approaches in how we use the withdrawing aspect of hikite, probably due to the different contexts in which we use it (range and attacks encountered). I only ever use the extended part to block/divert/cover an attack in the form of a protective flinch. I'd never use the withdrawal to pull myself into the other guy as I'm already well within striking through range and they are probably about to/trying to hit with the other hand, so I'd be making myself more vulnerable - pulling them on the other hand makes their continuing striking less effective.

    Each to their own. As you say it will depend upon the technique and the situation. The Karate I teach is designed for close quarter fighting against haov.
     
  17. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    It's interesting how little you can learn in 20 years of Karate study. As someone else who has 20 years of Karate training behind them, in addition to over 15 years of solid regular cross training in other martial arts to further the depth and breadth of my karate knowledge, your apparent ignorance of biomechanics and the superficiality of your understanding of the martial art of boxing truly saddens me.

    You've set up two straw men there (B and C) which have not, to my knowledge, been argued on this thread.
     
  18. Rebel Wado

    Rebel Wado Valued Member

    Yeah it is all in the context. I agree.

    The first time I was told to really use the pivot point through my opposite hip and shoulder, I noticed I gained 6 inches of range on my punch since instead of pulling back, I'm pivoting "around the sword". Anyway, having 6 more inches of range made it difficult to fully use this pivot point in close in combat.

    For close in combat striking, I often now use the same hand for striking and the pivot point is usually through my forearm (the pivot point through the opposite hip is still used but not to full extent, it is much shortened for close in). For instance, if I strike with my left, this strike can some after blocking/checking with my left or my strike also is a block. In terms of hikite, my left hand hikite just slightly pulls the opponent's arm in the direction it is already going and then my left strikes from there. That is if the context fits.

    Again, I agree it has to do with context what works best for each of us.
     
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2011
  19. John Titchen

    John Titchen Still Learning Supporter

    I understand what you mean. Gaining an extra 6 inches of range is not a problem I normally face. I'm normally only 0 - 18 inches from the target.
     
  20. seiken steve

    seiken steve golden member

    I still need to train with you JWT, every time you've been northish it's been a bad time, BOO
     

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