Special martial arts armor for full contact sport?

Discussion in 'Weapons' started by qazaqwe, Sep 3, 2015.

  1. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

  2. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Probably great for training but I can't imagine it being an interesting spectator sport. all that protection taking the impact and effect of the blow will probably result in fighters just standing in front of each other and hitting each other as fast as they can, and the audience will scratch their heads and wonder what the hell is going on.

    Bit like some of those eskrima competitions you see.
  3. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Inclined to agree, having competed in those eskrima matches. I don't know that they were terribly interesting to anyone other than the two guys getting pummeled at the time.
  4. pseudo

    pseudo Padawan

    Poker and Dota are spectator sports... I'm sure it will drum up some interested spectators. Besides this is one step closers to bringing back the gladiators.
  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    wow! would love to have a go. But as a spectator sport, i think the above posts have it.
  6. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Sure there will be some interest but I doubt it will even come close to being as popular as point fighting type stuff.

    Kendo, fencing, eskrima, HEMA, DBMA comps. are hardly big events even in the MA world let alone outside of the MA community, so I don't see why this will be any different. Don't get me wrong, i'd love to see HEMA, DBMA or fencing on TV every Saturday night....but....

    As said, the armour will be great for training; it would be great to practice your strikes at full whack on someone wearing that stuff.

    Edit: and lets be honest, without the chance of seeing some blood, the general public wouldn't be interested.
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2015
  7. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    I tend to agree, but part of me thinks that an idea's merit really depends on the audience, i mean, they made 7 seasons of robot wars for some ungodly reason, i do agree though, without some ability to totally disable the guy via contact, and the complete absence of gore, they are really buggered from a marketing stand point, it was good to see people trying to use stuff other than that god awful m1 medieval stuff.
  8. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Robot Wars - hah! But that was such stupid fun, people enjoy that sort of stuff. Maybe if the commentator for UWM has some really dry sarcasm going on, like the guy in the UK version of Come Dine With Me, it would get the punters in. Perhaps they could call the comp. Come Die With Me, *dry northern English accent* "Well, no surprise, the Ninjutsu practitioner is really struggling at this point in the match, perhaps he should have tried some sparring during his ten years of training...or maybe its time for his invisibility cloak".

    I guess as its all linked up to computers a point system similar to judo would work well. a killing blow would give you full points (ippon), a disabling blow would give you half points, and two disabling points would add up to full points and game over, bit like having both arms chopped off. The system would record the force of the blow and call it. Then there could be points for lighter blows to determine a winner in the event of a draw and no one getting the full or half point.
  9. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    It all falls to some form of theory in the end with that system, hitting someone a half dozen times in the head with a lump of wood only to have them stab roughly where your heart is, you'd begin to wonder.

    Saying that, if i saw it on the tv i'd still watch it, i'd probably even do my own sarcastic commentary "there is the kendoka, using his authentically crafted katana like a club...and it's broken in half, yet again".
  10. SWC Sifu Ben

    SWC Sifu Ben I am the law

    There are a few problems I see with making this workable:

    Thrusts - with rather stiff weapons any thrust is going to pose a risk of injury to your wrist and so you'll feel safer doing it at a range and intensity which would likely not penetrate significantly. I see it coming down to, like escrima tends toward, plenty of whacking and very little point play.

    Scoring - how to score afterblows already seems a difficulty in HEMA. It'll always be contentious whether your cut to his arm or thrust to the face would've been enough to stop his next attack. Although this may promote higher skill levels in preventing the afterblows I think it will just make audiences and participants very confused.

    Context - unless you find some way to keep changing the fighting area, number of combatants, etc. eventually this is probably going to come down to the longest pointy weapon versus the longest pointy weapon. There's a reason duelling blades tend toward the thrust-centric types. A gladius won't fare very well against a rapier with all other elements being equal but given my first contention about thrusts being an issue (barring better weapon design) I think it's more likely it'll be a spear. Also keep in mind that some of these will be weapons which were specifically designed to fight against armor. What is the point in using a mace or katar if the competition armor is designed to protect and replicate an unarmoured opponent? It's going to become a very limited set of weapons and shields with those contextual limitations.

    Wrestlers - given a) the higher general skill and physique level of your average college wrestler than the people who usually train weapons and b) the historical dominance of wrestling as a fighting style in weapon based combat means that you could likely take a group of wrestlers, teach them basic ways to bind or deflect to mask the shoot and have them dump everyone on the ground and finish them.
  11. matveimediaarts

    matveimediaarts Underappreciated genius

    I assumed fencing to be somewhat popular in Europe, as it's an olympic event, and the Europeans seem to like the more interesting events like sabre, epee, etc better than Americans.
  12. Bozza Bostik

    Bozza Bostik Antichrist on Button Moon

    Which Europeans? there's a whole bunch of countries with quite different cultures to choose from. :p

    I couldnt tell ya. I know two fencers and a fencing instructor, but I don't think it's popular. However that's just my experience with the UK, The Nordics and Russia.
  13. VoidKarateka

    VoidKarateka Valued Member

    I think fencing has popularity within France and Italy. In the short space I trained, my instructor went on forever about how the French and Italians are all about fencing. I always looked at it as a class thing, fencing came from something the nobility did (and maybe still do?), us common folk have some good meat on meat pugilism instead.

    As for UWM I've been following them on Facebook for a while. It's an interesting concept and I'd personally love to see it. But with minimal risks of injury from what could be critical strikes it would just end up like most fencing type competitions; getting hits in anywhere fast with little to no regard for personal safety required.

    One thing in their favour though, they're actively listening to what people want. If you message them with suggestions or questions they're happy to chat. From their recent 'beta demo' to show the format, people were upset with the computer game style health bars and how the 'round' (if you can call them that) only lasted for a few seconds. Understandably in weapons combat it's only seconds between contact and victory/loss but it does break any action up. It also means you're not going to see how far physically these men and women could be pushed. I can honestly imagine a bunch of out of shape LARPers being able to dominate this arena without having to display much in the way of skill or experience in any given combat science.

    I'll be keeping my eyes open though. There's potential there.
  14. hewho

    hewho Valued Member

    it'd be cool if the armour could limit your movement if say you took a cut across ligaments or muscles maybe fake blood to appease the crowds, and armour with pressure sensors, so a light hit wouldn't score high or damage, but a well placed thrust or slash could shut down part of the suit, or even score a 'kill'
  15. qazaqwe

    qazaqwe Valued Member

    Sounds like we have the first gimmick, get some LARPers and throw them in with some decent martial artists, anyone got a number for the dog brothers?
  16. Langenschwert

    Langenschwert Molon Labe

    I remain skeptical, for all the reasons detailed above, plus draw cuts and the judging of edge alignment for blades.

    A good hit with a weapon can disable someone very quickly, or it might not. It's impossible to tell because two attacks that look the same may have very different effects depending on how people were moving, etc. Also, impact =/= cutting effectiveness. I can hit tatami REALLY hard with a sword and not cut it. You have to do it properly to really do damage. If your edge alignment is out or your hand speed insufficient, it's not going to be a good cut.

    That being said, if they pull it off, I'll watch it. HEMA guys are already doing this, only with judged matches. Judged matches have their own benefits and problems, though. It certainly does no harm to try it and see if it will work.

    And yes, those with good wrestling skills will dominate this, as they should. There is a reason that the old manuals prize wrestling so much, such that one says "all fencing comes from wrestling".

    The rounds should be short. A fight with weapons and no armour is over in seconds if the opponents are skilled and determined.

    If they use traditional anti-armour techniques in this sport, people are going to the hospital. Our club disallows crossguard hits, half-sword thrusts and mortschlags in competition. Some HEMA (and similar) takedowns are incredibly brutal when applied full force and would have to be disallowed. That also takes away from any supposed realism.

    The hand protection looks super sketchy too. Edit: holy moly they're going to lose fingers. Bring a sandwich bag to collect the bits.

    While the long-term this may be viable, there are going to be a lot of visits to the ER until they get things sorted.
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2015

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