This is nothing new. I train in both JMA and BJJ and we have similar flow drills where we are not moving at top speed. However the difference especially on the BJJ side is that we are actively working techniques (and positions) to put ourselves in a better position. I might be missing something and I'm trying to understand but what is the point of say this? [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiF5G0cZea4"]Systema throwing - Martin Wheeler - YouTube[/ame] Can you point out some examples in there that are meant to have combative value? Or are they working this "concept of flow" without regard to improving fighting ability? The reason I asked is because although the gentleman seems to move well and is "flowing", the things he is actually doing in my opinion do not look good and he is intentionally putting himself in an inferior position.
Since the topic heading was 'sparring in hapkido', I mentioned how we spar and why. That's it. I never said it was anything new, so I don't see how your comment, 'This is nothing new' adds value to the discussion. Assuming you are not being deliberately obtuse nor antagonistic, I will explain it again. THE TECHNIQUES ARE NOT THE SAME! So getting me to explain why some systema techniques work in their video demo is completely missing the point, since what we do isn't systema. Does that make sense? If you want to find out why systema does something a certain way, you will have to talk to a systema practitioner. If you do bjj, then you will understand the term 'rolling'. Think of it as 'rolling' but standing up. There is no choreography. Unfortunately, I can't give a better explanation than that in words.
I'm sorry did I miss something? I was questioning something that YOU introduced into this discussion. If you don't want to discuss it further that's fine but you haven't explained or answered anything with the above response. That video I posted looked nothing like "rolling" to me. What I saw was an extremely compliant attacker who was intentionally (or maybe unconsciously) throwing himself on the floor.
Thor almighty that was horrible...it looked like the most compliant Aikido demo in the world only crapper
ok, so maybe you are not trolling and you are missing the point and not reading it what I wrote. so yes, you are missing something if you aren't trolling. 1) i never said i was doing anything new. so your snide comment seem like you want to start something because the thread wasn't 'do you do something new' since i never mentioned it. also, the fact that you are choosing to look at only one video selectively instead of trying to look at the whole picture as well as 2 video to understand, shows that you are really just looking for a debate to prove your point. i'll will say your attacks are very polite and leading, but i do recognize your tone and direction. congrats for practicing bjj, it's very effective! 2) i am not here to debate nor analyze systema. you are not realizing this, but you are asking me to analyze systema. do you want me to quote you where you are asking me to break down a systema video as if i'm a systema person? i get that you don't seem to like systema as many bjj people don't so that's fine, but i'm not going to speak for why they choose to do something. 3) i wrote" ''we spar at moderate speed with some give and take attacks without fully going into your opponent.'' so this is what we do. this is the explanation. i wrote:''it's probably similar in mentality to 'soft work' found in systema, but the actual movement principles are different. we call this 'analyze'". do you see how i wrote the word 'probably'? did i say exactly? notice how i say, 'the actual movement principles are different' and how the 'mentality' is similar? 4)i give you that it doesn't look like bjj rolling in that there is much less resistance. i didn't choose a bjj video because it's on the ground and people who don't do it would miss certain things. also, often rolling can turn into the equivalent of full on grappling. i've seen many spazzes for something that's supposed to be a light roll. i can find some nice examples with bjj instructors playing with students if it will make you happier; maybe my choice of words was wrong as 'toying' by an instructor in bjj would be a better equivalent than 'rolling, except it's not people of equal level going at it. i do agree that there is too little resistance in that video (which is why i included a second) in that the uke is trying to sometimes anticipate what the instructor is doing. however, he does try to resist or move in different directions at points if you watch. why he's doing the anticipation? a systema person can answer, but that wasn't the point of why i introduced the video. however, that's why i included a second video, as well as a first to continue to give an approximation, so people won't be selective. obviously, it didn't work. sonnon's russian former martial arts group seems to have more resistance at times in their training(there are a lot more than the second video), so it might be closer. they are easily found on youtube, but both sonnon and vlad vasiliev (one of wheeler's teachers) have forums online; i don't want to misrepresent them and you should direct your questions there if you have specific questions about the russian arts outside of sambo.
great question. to train with 'give and take' resistance at a slower pace with acceleration and decceleration is a bridge from drills to full on sparring. applying a lock on someone who isn't sticking their hand out, but also not fighting for their life when you have proper placement during lighter and slower sparring allows you to decrease tension and analyze your form. moving continuously is closer to hard sparring than doing some drills in isolation, which are also necessary. it becomes less about winning and allows you to remove that emotional investment of anxiety, so you an instead studying specific movements within a continuous scenario. it seemed that the systema guys in the first video were moving with a flow (although i agree that there was too much compliance in the first video) and continuous, which is why i used them. to answer your ' how' question is harder and again, i can only give an approximation. unfortunately our group isn't tech savvy so the best way is to see it is live but i will give it a try, briefly. think of full contact sparring (punching, kicking, throwing, joint-locking, submission) but not at maximum speed and less than maximum resistance, with either partner being able to call a break. the goal is to try different techniques without broken or tense movements. your partner is not doing his absolute best to resist you, but he's not going to just stand there. he's moving at a moderate speed and he will try his own techniques on you. if you manage to get in a position for a throw, he's not going to fight you for the counter hard because the goal is to avoid force on force. but if you don't place it properly, then he's not going to jump over. also, he's not going to try to block or avoid every kick or punch especially if you are in a good position. It's give and take. also, you getting used to taking some shots that are lighter than a full contact hit, but greater than most point sparring taps.
you can call it that if you want, however, i've seen other groups do it differently, so i'm not sure that 'light sparring' really says a lot description wise. i've seen light sparring more at faster speeds so it looks more like point sparring tournaments, and that's definitely not what i'm trying to convey, especially goal wise. also, often the goal of a lot of light sparring is to beat your opponent or score on them more, etc. while the goal of analyzing is to study technique or work on concepts within a dynamic environment. the only other thing i can add is that you are sometimes letting things through, and you can accelerate and deccelerate techniques so you can transition back to drills or you can increase it into hard sparring. it's more like jazz in that way. it's the concept of moving up and down the scale which also makes it different from what i've seen, although other groups may be doing the same. again, i'm not saying we are doing what is unique, but on the other hand, i know that there are groups that don't do what we do.
From your previous post you gave the impression that you train in systema, hence why I was asking you those questions. Thank you for clarifying. I did watch multiple videos including the ones you posted and others and all I saw was compliant attacks. In my opinion sparring "at moderate speed with some give and take attacks without fully going into your opponent" is really nothing like what I saw in those systema videos. I was asking you to provide some specific examples from what YOU saw in those videos to help in this discussion. My example from BJJ wasn't to turn this into "BJJ is the greatest" thread and please don't take it so personally. In all fairness, I don't like what I have seen of Systema especially in those videos. However my opinion can certainly be changed with reasoned discussion.
Here are some examples: [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKun6M4g-Vo"]RDA BJJ: Flow Roll - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eq4uGZvsPXw"]Some BJJ Flow Rolling - YouTube[/ame]
The only good systema training that I have seen, has been some of this guys - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkWSA18d-zE"]COMBAT SYSTEMA--Clinch DVD - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boo_a-_7XPU"]round kick defense - YouTube[/ame] [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8vFMONgxXFE"]9 tips for improving your arm bar - YouTube[/ame] and martin wheeler seems to be doing better things with his students in this clip - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6fHabwT7MY"]Martin Wheeler in Montreal June 2010 - YouTube[/ame]
I can see the potential I really can...but this drilling is horrible, counter productive and teaches nothing you cannot obtain by actually training properly in the first place. The groundwork *ahem* "flow" in particular is horrible and would get you destroyed by any average grappler in about 30 seconds flat. Why do people insist on re-inventing the wheel and inroducing concepts and drills that will be to the detriment fo the trainee?
Im a big fan of flow rolling, but only using exactly the same technique you would do otherwise, I quite like some of kevin's material, but the more 'systema like' it is, the more out there it gets.
Ive always liked this for flow rolling - [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1kLYq2noc8"]Bj Penn and Leo Vieira rolling - YouTube[/ame]
