Sparring - Important for Self Defense

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by rudai123, Sep 21, 2011.

  1. rudai123

    rudai123 New Member

    I currently am taking Seido Karate. I enjoy the emphasis on fundamentals (how to make a fist, throw a punch etc). Two things I don't particularly like:

    1. No sparring until you are a Green Belt (White, Blue, Yellow, Green, Brown, then Black). I did the math, that is at least 1.5 years into it (I'm testing for my blue in November).

    As a collegiate wrestler, sparring was fundamental to the real application of what you learned.

    2. Katas are very central to training. Of course being an impatient student, I would much rather be sparring.

    Am I way off base here?
     
  2. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    nope, that's WAY too late to start sparring, IMO

    it could still be good, but i personally don't like it.
     
  3. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    No single technique can be understood even to competence, much less any real depth, without actually using often it in regular unscripted resistant training.
    If you want to wait a year and a half before you begin to really get anything, and then only in a very cloistered environment, only against people who have been indoctrinated into a particular way of movement, then go for it. If you want to be able to fight in any way, you need to go somewhere that trains fighters, and those places don't shy away from sparring.
     
  4. Kurtka Jerker

    Kurtka Jerker Valued Member

    Also, you ought to look into something dealing with weapons, deescalation, avoidance and legal issues if you want something tailored to self defense. Fighting's actually one of the less effective tools for protecting yourself. Sometimes it's what you've got, but generally if you find yourself in a position where it's neccessary, short of a few specific scenarios, you've missed something more fundamental leading up to that point.
     
  5. Thomas

    Thomas Combat Hapkido/Taekwondo

    It seems like a long time to train with no sparring. We usually give students a couple of weeks of training before throwing them in to sparring (and easily at first... more rules and lower level of contact)... but a year and a half seems long. Granted, I know some other 'traditional' schools that do this.

    With a wrestling background, I think you may have a good intuition that you should be doing at least some sparring sooner. Have you thought about looking around and seeing what other schools are in the area. You can probably stop in and watch (or do a few free lessons) and see if something fits you better. Good luck and good training.
     
  6. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Is it no sparring at all, or just no completely free sparring?

    Personally, I wouldn't throw complete beginners into free sparring, but most karate clubs will have you doing some form of partnered drilling from the start.
     
  7. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Ooft, a year and a half? I waited 1 month for kickboxing, and three months for BJJ! Get into kickboxing, it was developed from Karate anyway.
     
  8. Microlamia

    Microlamia Banned Banned

    Yep, I was allowed to do groundwork right away in Judo, and proper sparring as soon as I could fall properly! Anywhere that only lets you spar after a year and a half is a pile of puke, in terms of developing actual skills.
     
  9. Moosey

    Moosey invariably, a moose Supporter

    Comparing grappling with striking has always been a bit silly, IMHO.

    It's like people who say "Yeah! I do FULL CONTACT martial arts in my BJJ class!" (as opposed to? grappling with your opponent using telekinesis?).

    I'm all for building up to free sparring via small steps for the sake of safety. I reckon it's only a problem if you're not doing any kind of sparring outside your comfort zone at all.
     
  10. Osu,


    Preventing students from getting hurt is important in a KD style, but no sparring till green belt seems a bit excessive.
    Surely some sparring with black & brown belts should be possible? :)

    If not, you might want to look for another place to train...


    OSu!
     
  11. Fish Of Doom

    Fish Of Doom Will : Mind : Motion Supporter

    *strips naked and parades through oslo wearing only a sign that says "PROUD ADVOCATE OF SPARRING SINCE THE FIRST MONTH OF TRAINING"*
     
  12. John R. Gambit

    John R. Gambit The 'Rona Wrangler

    It's pretty unorthodox to wait that long in any MA that has sparring in it. I'd say a couple of months without sparring would be necessary for safely in most systems, and amping it up gradually after that with the more experienced students for a couple more months before pitting the newbs against each other in a more free form environment. If you choose a new school, just be wary of any school without any sparring, any that waits more than 4-5 months to really get into heavy contact sparring, or any school that has you "hard sparring" immediately.
     
  13. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    rudai123 - I see you're in MD, would you by chance be close to any of these Phoenix Karatedo schools?

    http://meta.phoenixkarate.com/metadot/index.pl?id=2208;isa=Category;op=show

    Phoenix is a Kyokushin karate offshoot that focuses heavily on sparring, and as you advance in levels they even allow limited groundfighting. Many of the instructors are great approachable guys and tough fighters. They also have various different seminars and are always interested in cross-training. There's still kata and the like, but the big emphasis is on fighting. To have gotten your yellow belt under Phoenix you'd have to fight for 10 continuous minutes against a few other students. By the time you reach 1st degree black belt, that fight goes up to 50 minutes.
     
  14. rudai123

    rudai123 New Member

    Thanks for everyone's thoughts. I'm going to look at a few more spots that hopefully have more emphasis on sparring.
     
  15. rudai123

    rudai123 New Member

    I found a good Hapkido school (with sparring) and am also going to stick with Seido.
     
  16. Pretty In Pink

    Pretty In Pink Moved on MAP 2017 Gold Award

    Congrats man! :D
     
  17. Guyin

    Guyin Old Cynic

    In answer to the original title of the thread, no, you don't need any 'sparring' for effective self defense. What you do need is...


    Dojo sparring has very little to do with self defense. It's fun, but it can also teach you to do all the wrong things very well.

    However, with regard to dojo sparring, IMO you should be included from the start of your training.
     
  18. Ives

    Ives Mokuteki o motte hajimeru

    We only have kumite (sparring as you call it) from 5th kyu (kyu grades start at 9th till 1st kyu) which also meens you have been training for app. 1.5 years. This has to do with us using bare knuckles and feet on quite hard bogu-equipement, which get kind of rough in full-contact.

    However, we start working towards actual kumite long before.
    First steps are basic kihon, so you know how to aim and what route to make with your techniques.
    This leads to yakusoku-kihon-kumite/tangan-kumite. Prearanged seme against uke. This is to make actual contact with uke (not seme) and to see seme (where does the hand come from, where does it go to?).
    Then we use makiwara-waza against kickshields then bogu.
    (The following are picked up at 6th/5th kyu.)
    Then we do kakari-kumite: seme against full bogu-equipement, here you are only allowed to use uke. (Later on you may counter to suki.)
    Then you get to yakusoku-kumite. Try to hit your opponent who tries to dodge and block and can counter.
    Eventually you get to jiyu-kumite: all out against eachother using bogu.

    (Another step is jigen-kempo: bogu-kumite against multiple opponent-attacks. But this is only done from nidan.)

    The experience in our school tells us, that from green-belt level the risk of injury get smaller because techniques have reached an apropriate level for bogu-kumite.
    People introduced too early tend to drop-out. Most times seriously injured at hands and feet because of bad technique and lack of control. (Torn tissue or tendons are then not uncommon.) That's why we start kumite at 6th/5th kyu.

    Karate is not like instant-coffee; pour stachel into cup, ad boiling water and stir, ad milk and/or sugar, enjoy. Karate (and kumite) takes practice and some more practice, but it also needs the right mind. Coffee only warms you up for a short moment, karate can do that for a lifetime.

    Sparring is only a little part of karate. And sparring in wrestling and in karate can hardly be compared.

    Also why the rush? Are you in a hurry learning karate?

    Have you talked to you instructor about why it takes to green belt to spar? Maybe if he sees you are up to it he'll might invite you to spar with the seniors.

    >> 'Instant-KarateĀ® get yoursby the dozen for only 99ct!!!'
    >> 'Just ad boiling water and you're ready to take on the world!!'
    >> 'Black belt, dan-stipes and shiny trophees included!'
     
  19. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    I see it as just being two different types of training:

    1. You can play around and do pretty much whatever you want, you can bounce on your toes or roll around ground grappling for a full 5 minutes if your wish. This is sport training and general playing around.
    2. You're learning to deal with committed attacks where the person has intent to hurt you hard and fast with every strike/grab and you automatically assume there may be weapons and other adversaries.
     
  20. Plimft

    Plimft Valued Member

    I agree with Sketco.

    You're either training for competition or you're training for self defence. You'd be much better with Krav Maga or the like for self defence training. Karate is good, but in a modern context I think it's better suited to either competition or health and 'spiritual' development.

    In my experience it is incredibly difficult to find an art that can teach a cross over of the two.

    Remember though, any kind of full contact fighting (competition or otherwise) can come in handy in s SD scenario, dependant on the circumstances.

    DISCLAIMER!

    For the record, I train in Kyokushin karate, so before people get all defensive and start e-flogging me, I mean no offence to any karateka out there!
     

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