Sparring, Contests and Fighting

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by DAnjo, Oct 6, 2006.

  1. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    I think where MMA style training (sport/competition) loses some efficiency as a training tool for self-defense is in the time management.

    We all have a limited amount of time to train. So what are you going to spend that time doing? learning how to escape an omoplata or learning how to make somebody release their grab on your hair? (I notice that some of you have solved that particular problem pre-emptively LOL)

    What the MMA training brings to the table is a high level of agression and a wide variety of attacks - but probably a lot wider variety than you are likely to encounter in your normal self-defense situation - and so that is inefficient. Unless you get mugged by Nick Diaz, you probalby don't need to worry about defending the arm triangle applied from side-mount. my time would be better spent learning to recover my balance from a solid shove to the upper body for example.

    When we spar, unless the two fightees agree differently at the start, it will include take downs and ground fighting. We don't track points of any kind, we just go until either of them wants to stop. Usually that's a tap out or knock-down from a strike (we differentiate between a grappling/take down where the fight continues, and a knock down from a strike, when we usually stop, for safety's sake). But it's not always a contest to the stoppage... It can be exploratory too, maybe I want to work on a certain type of maneuver or block or something.. in which case after a while I might have satisfied my questions or ideas and want to do something else so I'd call a stop and then we'd do something different.

    I think it is a commentary on the degeneration of MA training that the term "aliveness" had to be coined at all...
  2. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    You seem to take your arts serious enough and thats great but based on what we've seen of your grandmaster, I and I think we find it hard to comprehend one of your grandmasters schools training that way.

    I think the term aliveness wasn't coined in an effort to to dissassociate the arts but rather to better explain the phases of development.
  3. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Hi David I am going to back you on this one. Sonny Gascon saw something good in CG, so it was good. The problem is CG is to hungry and went down the road because of it. He is not a bad practioner he is an ego maniac.

    People who are like that are similar in all they do, so I would say he is probably a very dedicated guy, a good fighter after all he is fighting. You are attacking. So if CG gets attacked and he fights back is that to say he is a wuss? I don't think so...

    Why would you go that route akja. I guess it is the, father like son, or son like father mentality. Sins of the father load up on the son.

    I am not into that thought pattern, CG thought the more he got the better it was for his sudents, akja, I think we all have to stand on our own feet especially if we are in the ring at the time.

    Regards, Gary
  4. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    You missed the tape of CG. Ask around and someone will post you a current link that has the tape availbale.
  5. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Guess I will go on a quest, thanks.

  6. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    so, are you calling me a liar??? Am I reading you correctly???

    I think you are reading too much into one video tape. From watching a few katas, being demonstrated in a certain mode (among many modes in which a kata can be performed), you are assuming you know what goes on at a completely different school, under a different teacher, doing a completely different activity.

    It's a big leap. "Prof. Geary did kata slowly for a promotion test video" implies "Shihan Steiner's school doesn't spar aggressively" is a pretty wide gap in logical progression. It's a complete non -sequitir (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) if you ask me.

    For example that is a much larger leap than this would be: "Lou Angel promoted Geary to a higher rank than he promoted you, therefore you must not be as good a martial artist as Prof. Geary". that is downright sound reasoning, but I bet you disagree with it ROFL Which leads us to the reason you would post such a personal attack on me... :rolleyes:
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  7. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    Ignoring for a moment your insult, let me clarify what I meant.

    Back in the day before the days of lawsuits and mcdojoism, everyone trained much harder and in a way that today would be described as "alive". Perhaps this is a myth and such days never were... but assuming for a moment that there was such a time, there was no need for a term like "aliveness training" because it was just what everyone did. Now that it is something special, it has a name.

    When it was what everyone just did, it didn't need a name. So it is symptomatic of the degeneration of training standards that what used to be the norm is now a special case.
  8. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    I was trying to be nice.

    I have no clue to why he promoted geary but all you have to do is read my cert and you will see that I Angel co-signed my 5th which came from a JKD/Kempo instructor based MA totally differant from the Kempo most are exposed to.
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  9. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    I was there.

    Like I posted before it is in relation to a higher phase of ones development where we "do without thinking."
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2006
  10. KenpoDavid

    KenpoDavid Working Title

    No, you weren't trying to be nice. "Be nice" is something my 6 year old has to "try" to do. I think you were trying to diplomatically call me a liar, which is far from "nice".

    You are judging the sparring at Steiner's school today by looking at a 5 year old video of Geary doing kata. And I am trying to make the point that this is not a logical deduction.
  11. James Kovacich

    James Kovacich RENEGADE

    If you knew me better you would that I was being nice. I have my reasons for not being nice. In Steiners school I hope that you are getting really good training. I don't think that Geary is as good as Steiner but with Geary supervising Steiner, you shouldd understand.

    ALPHADEANO U knows it Clart

    Intresting and informative posts.

    I just stumbled on this thread and thought you might be intrested in viewing this clip I found on youtube.

    [ame=""]Realistic Knife Scenarios - YouTube[/ame]
  13. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    Sorry I’ve been tied up with work this week and am a little late with a response.

    I don’t think anyone has favoured one form of training over another in this thread, certainly they haven’t bagged MMA. There has been a number of discussions on training methods and their various advantages and the concept of what damage are we prepared to do to ourselves in the name of self-defence.

    To clarify my position. As someone that has been involved in martial arts for most of my life and has done competition based arts like boxing and judo in the past, I have no problems with people doing MMA and I can see where they have positives for training and why some people enjoy them more than a more traditional based art. What I don’t accept is that competition in MMA offer the best way to develop skills in self-defence, that is not to say that they are not good for development though. They are a simulation and as such will be good at training for some aspects and not so good for others. When it comes to developing my ability to defend myself I don’t see MMA offering me any advantages over our current training methods. If I wanted the thrill of competition then MMA would be one competitive environment that would hold attraction for me.

    As for injuries. As I stated my experience in MA has been a number of years (18 in just Shorinji Kempo). Over the years I have experienced many different training philosophies and techniques. In another form of Kempo I did before Shorinji Kempo our instructor also ran a security business and managed boxers. He used to think it was of value to bring these people along to the club to fight us, there were very little rules and the contact was full power. This was very tough and hard and there was some value to it but the risks were high as was the injury rate. Now, after a lifetime of training all the broken bones (toes, fingers, ribs, vertebrae, collar bone), dislocations, torn cartilages, smashed discs, repetitive strain injuries, bouts of knee surgery and spinal surgery have all taken their toll on my lifestyle and MA abilities. Knowing what I know now after doing various coaching courses and experiencing various simulations within other sporting environments and my 14 years in the military I can see that much of what I did in the past was not necessary or particularly effective in developing my self-defence skills. There are other methods that work just as well but don’t carry the same high risks. The thing is in knowing what methods can be used and when they should be used. There is no one method, a range of methods need to be used and skill sets need to be broken up and worked on individually before combining them. Students need to apply skills in a stressful or competitive environments so these aspects need to be addressed, however they also need to be given the chance to experiment with the application of techniques, try new techniques in a non rehearsed way, develop timing skills, develop strategy and ways of creating openings. These skills will suffer if the practice environment is always competitive and stressful, for these to develop well we need to create a non-competitive environment that doesn’t prevent students from experimentation.
  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I agree. No one is saying that ther is no value in MMA stuff. The idea of saying that MMA is the best way to train someone in self defense, is that it's like saying that the best way to develop driving skills is to race high performance race cars at the Indy 500, or to race off-road at the Baja 500. While those are certainly tests of one's driving skills and the drivers are obviously extremely good, I wouldn't advocate either of those experiences when teaching someone how to drive a car. They simply do not meet the needs of the average person. I remember in driver's ed classes, they had simulators, then driving with the instructor who had a "Chicken Brake" on their side of the car, then in my parent's car, then on my own. It wasn't straight into the racing circuit with no experience.
  15. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    As in Multiple Martial Arts.
    I don't see the connection you are putting on it here Dan, it is not that intense in the training camps, they are training and working for the ring.

    Now if you want to say something like everyone needs to scream at the same time, I would still not understand your thoughts. To scream at people does not mean it will be accompanied with a punch into the physcial being of someone.

    I believe ninja's would not be screaming. So why do we scream?

    Well for one it is intense, and for another it does help to expel breath and then It will have the reverse effect of bringing in new oxygen to the person who has done it.

    One ways to help them breath, people have always mentioned the boxer is not breathing when punching, so he is not able to fight as well, a very important part of fighting is to be able to suppy your muscle's with oxygen.

    To say we are training multiple ma is to, fight in a ring is not very correct.

    My thoughts.
    Martial arts is not all about fighting, even for those who think it is. One of the big differences between some arts and others. That is not to say some are designed just for fighting. Because some are.

    Boxers are not told, not to hit their opponent, that is part of that package. But they are taught when and how to hit and why and then sometme it becomes natural and not so for others.

    Part of the package is to prepare them for fighting and to do it gradual. In that story of yours I can see the similar discussion as far as my last statement.

    I was talking to a young guy, 36 now his back is seriously messed up all because he was in a very serious, ego situation.
    When training and got injured instead of trained. I see it all the time, pretty sad, the guy who injured him, on purpose. Should take care of his doctor bills. IMHO...

  16. KempoFist

    KempoFist Attention Whore

    "If you ain't fighting, you're Larping"

    ~End of thread~
  17. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Thanks for the information, truly insightful. :rolleyes:

    Gary :)
  18. Colin Linz

    Colin Linz Valued Member

    Mmmm, well after my recent posts on the need for safe training environments I managed to break a rib and maybe my little toe yesterday while training. :eek:
  19. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Unfortunately things happen no matter how safe the training environment. Here's to a healthy and speedy recovery :)
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    That rib will take some time as well as the toe.

    One time I had a few ribs injured so I was not doing grappling but participatiing in some other moves and stepped on a guys foot and broke one of his toes, second one for him in a few days, can we say ouch?

    Take care, do as much as they (injuries) will allow. To stop at an older age from the rib can mean Pneumonia. Really, breath deep. It will hurt but that is life. Isolate the toe and walk, helps the blood flow that is needed. Honest.


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