Ok guys... here's the deal. This thread is for anyone who wants to debate (not a pointless argument) the issue of the appropriate time to start sparring. We'll leave politics on the side for this one, and not advertise our clubs or associations. Ok? My opinion (in a nutshell)... • Sparring should not be allowed for the first month or so ~Movement is taught in this period~ • optional after the first month or so of lessons/classes, but the participant is put with a higher grade/experienced person and works on attacking whilst the high grade works on defending. And the higher grade throws light attacks while the inexperienced person works on blocks and evasion. •At the time of about the 3rd belt roughly, full sparring happens but is still optional. Maybe for the middle belts, have the option of sparring OR doing something else alongside what you would normally have to do. •More focus is put into trying to get people to spar as they train for longer/get more belts and at the top end of the belt scheme, sparring is made compulsory. Last note on politics... Before someone says "but you've just written the PKA guidelines", I haven't. Discuss...
When I started taking Karate it was about 3 or 4 months before I started to spar. The reason as I was told by my teacher was I had no tools in my toolbox. I needed to understand and develop the basic movements before I could execute them. When I started to spar it was very slow sparing, almost slow motion. This was done to learn distance and control. Within a few years we would go full speed and full contact with no padding or gear on. I have never spared with gloves, head gear or a chest protector. The reason as I was told was so we would not be afraid to get hit without pads. I'm not saying this is the best technique but it worked well for me and gave me a good level of control. After a few more years the upper ranks were allowed to go to the head with control. Yes I got many lumps along the way but sparring is a great learning tool.
You've just written the PKA guidelines! Personally, I think sparring should be mandatory in ANY martial art - without pressure testing, you just don't know what you can do and should you need to use your training, your range and timing will be all off compared to someone who spars IMO As for when to start sparring, my instructor is of the opinion that you spar when he thinks you're ready and when you agree with him that you're ready. It's generally introduced within the first couple of months at my club after the idea of keeping your hands up is instilled and the student has learned enough techniques to be able to have something to do. My club doesn't do grades since it's quite a small class and the instructor's pretty up on where everyone is. We sometimes put more experienced students with new ones, as you mentioned, but there's a lot of "level matching" going on too. Putting new students together can be a good way of building their confidence in sparring since there's some competition rather than working with a more experienced student who's holding back and still not being able to get past their defence which can be a bit demoralising for some people
That doesn't deserve a comment. And you're a moderator as well? Agreed Which is one of the key reasons that I personally don't agree with belts. Far more hassle than they're worth. There will always be people who have natural ability, so sparring should only be done when the individual is ready. However in my perfect world, most people would be ready to do defensive work in sparring (not full paced though ). This is why I think it's important to do defensive sparring work before starting regular sparring. If you let beginners start with open sparring, they tend to develop rotten guards (or non-existant ones!). Defensive drills and sparring SHOULD sort this out. I think level matching should occur as soon as possible. In my ideal world, the first 2 or 3 belts will be relatively easy to get as they would basically involve showing quite basic techniques and movement, so I feel this is a reasonable level to start full sparring. It will be demoralising initially, but we have a lot of people at our club who actually want to spar our coach or the high grades rather than people of their own level. It's a tricky one, but I think you need to find the balance between the two. For some, expecially children, it would probably be encouraging to spar with a high grade. I also train in judo. We are pretty much fully sparring by the second or third lesson. I was introduced to the main group in my first lesson. We learn from the mistakes we made. If I did something silly, my partner told me and I corrected it. As I gradually learnt throws, I would incorporate them into my sparring and see what worked. If I waited until I was a 1st DAN (time to learn lots of moves) before sparring then I would be a poor judoka. I think the same principle applies. I would NEVER let any student spar without padding. If they want to get used to no holds barred fighting with no pads, they can go up town on a friday and start something. You will learn distance and control just as well at full speed, and the advantage is that you don't then have to adapt it once you have learnt it. A few years is quite a long time to wait before going full speed in sparring. I think punching to the head is a large part of kickboxing and once someone can do attacking sparring then in my book they can do face punching (we start with aiming at the forehead rather than direct face shots). I'm not arguing about wether or not this is the best method, I'm merely saying what I would do differently. Every method has its flaws
Any more of your lip and you'll find all your posts edited to say "Sever is awesome," sunshine I'm with you on the belts issue. In some styles/ clubs they can be a good indication of where a student is (especially in larger classes or instructors whose memory's not that good) but I'm a firm believer that some form of pressure testing should be included in gradings if they occur. I've never done any defensive sparring work unless I've been asked not to whack the new guys, but we do a lot of defensive drills. My particular favourite is one person is instructed to throw a combination (usually allowing restricted techniques that the instructor calls out so the attacker has to think about how to mix up his combos) and the other person defends it. The attacker has a list of attacks he or she can pick from, but can put them together however they like, thus making the defender genuinely defend, rather than a by-rote series of blocks. We do more traditional defense work too, but that drill's my favourite I'm a big fan of letting the new people spar and letting them develop their own defensive style (after a couple of hits, you tend to make the association of "hands up=no left hook"), but I can see where you're coming from. Different approaches, but I'd say they're both effective Some people do really like sparring the more experienced students, and some like it more at their own level, my club tends to mix it up to keep everyone happy. I feel you should spar with the more experienced students after you've had some plays with those your own level so you get pushed further and quicker, but who doesn't love a good competitive spar with someone their own level?
sorry thought i was reading on the kickboxing forum. have no idea what you are talking about in relation to kickboxing. maybe some other martial art that is practiced in an entirely different way. being seroius here for a minute. kickboxing is about learning basics first. the footwork and various techniques (cross, front kick, etc.) are usually what the student learns and practices from the start. this period is determined by the gym at which you are training. next is being exposed to some level of resistance. it could be light (focus pads and dodging/hitting) or a little more challenging (we just love the concept of aliveness). reguardless the resistance training comes early in training and should. the intensity of resistance is the 'grading' process of kickboxing. sorry no belts here. wear trunks that have no real need for them. the level of the ammount of progress in kickboxing is determined by the capability to actually use what has been learned. have to completely agree with sever that sparring really should be manditory in all martial arts styles. his explination is probably better than any i could really come up with. yet because im in a really talkitive mood will take a shot at this anyway. no sparring. how do you learn to hit a moving target? for that matter one that can hit back? how will you respond to getting hit without ever knowing what it feels like? do you know a technique is effective against someone if you have never actually tried using it against someone? by the way. safety gear should also be mandatory. no broken fists, lost teeth and the like.
Well then you should look around at the vast majority of American style kickboxing schools... a large number have a grading/belt system. And a lot of people simply don't want to spar. I don't know which club you train at where everyone spars, but it's not like most other kickboxing clubs on this planet we affectionately call "Earth". Also try and post in threads that aren't nearly a year old. Thanks
hey jabcrosshook, live here in America and have rarely (in fact never) seen a kickboxing school that had belt ranking. our progress is not measured in colored belts. the measure of progress for some (like myself) is improvement. for others thier measure of progress is measured by the number of fights (inside the ring) they have succesfully won. sorry no belts. while on the subject of what i have never seen there have been zero none nada schools of western boxing or kickboxing schools that i have ever visited or even heard of that do not spar. because sparring is a fundamental method of training for both. no spar=no boxing or kickboxing. my advice here is that if you want a belt ranking system and no sparring there are other martial arts that would better suite your tastes. just ran across this post recently and thought as my classmates do after reading your thread such a contention (no sparring in kickboxing) was so ridiculous a comment had to be made. besides my comments where very polite as opposed to what thier suggestions were. something they did suggest though was interesting. what exactly do you currently train in? because it does not sound like kickboxing. by the way contacted some other kickboxing schools here in the USA and they laughed at the idea of colored belts and no sparring.
There are literally tons of kickboxing clubs in the UK that have a belt system. There are also plenty that don't spar up until higher grades - if at all. You get three kinds of kickboxing in the UK, essentially 1) "Proper" kickboxing clubs: they train hard, spar lots, do plenty of live drills and train to compete in full or light contact. I've seen some clubs that train this way that have belts. Personally, I'm not a big fan of belt systems in any style, but if they're training right, it doesn't bother me that much 2) Freestyle karate and/or TKD masquerading as kickboxing: belt systems abound, largely geared towards light contact sparring and competitions, sometimes don't spar until higher levels, sometimes they even wear gis and do kata. Yes, really. There are degrees of this: some clubs that match this description are actually pretty successful in competition, some train like **** and avoid competition like the plague 3) Cardio kickboxing: y'know Tae Bo? It's like that. People (usually girlies who want to say they do kickboxing but don't want to get hit) standing in a line throwing kicks and punches in the air, often to music. Bag and padwork sometimes, pink gloves optional I've not covered everything, but most of the clubs I've been to in this country can be shoved into one of those three groups
hey sever, sounds like that kickboxing has become a generic term for any number of different styles or training practices. maybe calling 'something' by the name kickboxing attracts more students and/or gives instructors another martial art they can put on thier resume.(claim to teach) there is a real possibility that claiming to be teaching kickboxing while actually doing something completly different (or with vague similarities) is not something i approve of to say the least. because when someone is being mislead (knowingly) that is fraud. what if a school claimed to be offering instruction for karate yet did not ever teach forms? is that karate? what about if a school advertised for lessons in kung-fu yet never did any material that was based on animal fighting styles? is that really kung-fu? maybe those are not the best of examples. yet the general idea should be clear enough. have no problem with schools teaching different styles. just when they are teaching a mixture of different material and calling as much the name of a given style. because my wife and her friends enjoy thier various types of exersise routines (yoga, pilates, aerobics, etc.) it was only a matter of time before they were enrolled in cardio-kickboxing and tae-bo. which immediatly caused me to wonder exactly what is being taught in such classes. fortunatly i was capable of speaking with a couple of thier instructors and even had conversations with a few students that attended the same classes as my wife and her friends. this may not apply to all (or maybe the majority) of these schools yet they seemed mostly honest. with exception of a few statements like 'being in good physical shape can help defend yourself' or 'this material is like stuff taught in martial arts and/or kickboxing' nobody really pushed the idea cardio-kickboxing or whatever really taught fighting skills. no problem there. yet i have also seen a few schools that claimed to have a kickboxing program yet taught material that at best might be described as freestyle karate. they used material from karate or taekwondo (neither of which i have a problem with) and called it kickboxing. the best advice i could give about defining real kickboxing is for someone to visit a gym that represents a sanctioned kickboxing orginization. there you will not see forms or colored belts. what you will see is lots of sparring and real contact.
In answer to the question.. The appropriate time to start sparring is once you have learned the basics to a good level. There is simply no point in doing it before then.
I once (about 30 years ago) saw a beginner get up to do some sparring and he said he didn't know what to do, so the high grade said to just fight as he would in a fight, and promptly got headbutted! It then got a bit niggly and the beginner got thumped. Bad show, really.
You haven't heard of WAKO? World Associated Kickboxing Organisation? Quite possibly the largest organiser in the world lol. www.wakoweb.com
lol.... The best time to go kill each other in the ring is a trainer's decision. One guy may go after 3 weeks, one can go after 3 months. There was a guy in our gym who went on a tournament (low-kick) after training for 3 months. He did 2 weeks of sparring in his life and did great on that tournament. Won 2 fights, got ktfo'ed in the last, but most beginners loose their first fight, so there you have it. There is no strict procedure about this. It's varies from person to person and should definately be a trainers decision.
