the only ego i see here is the rather ugly side of bujinkan, which seems to involve a fairly elitist attitude. I have trained in a fair few different arts. i have seen merit and use techniques from them all, and i love to talk about different ways of doing things. its kind of sad that the bujinkan members of this forum with a couple of exceptions seem much more comfortable to jam their fingers in their ears and chant the mantra of an exceptionally skilled guy from japan as if one persons methods apply to everyone. i always thought the point of these forums was to discuss, but in this case anyone who doesnt do BBD is apparently some kind of filthy invader (probably a MMAist) who is trying to "dis" on the bujinkan. whatever.
Just to be exact, XPlasma is not linked to a ninjutsu tradition from Japan. He used to train in one, and his current teacher also used to. But now we laugh at the DVDs they come out ever since their teacher struck out on his own to be a soke. So you can't say that a x-kan member feels the need to prove their manhood by going to other forums and posturing. But we can say the that about.... well, maybe I should not go there.
I agree with you. I suppose I could have summed up my post in the following quote, "Train how you fight". For example, not training against tanto will not give anyone any experience of fighting against a tanto!! If I understand you correctly, you have, in effect, summarised exactly how I feel on the subject. The assumption above applies to excounters that do not contain a tanto aswell. If my logic is sound then, by not engaging in more complex exercises (I am going to not use the word 'sparring' so people don't get confused), how can anyone say with any certainty that they as gaining in useful experience that is going to aid them in a real conflict? To be honest, that is down to the people involved rather than the exercise they are engaging in. I always like to make it clear that you are not in competition with your opponent. You are simply training and learning how to move! If somebody starts with the mindset of "winning" then they are deluding themselves and are probably going to lose in the long run, imo. Sorry, i didn't go into details about the type of exercises I was refering to as that wasn't the focus of my post. By 'resistence' I refer to an opponent using Taijutsu and their capacity for movement in order to achieve a dominant position or to counter your movement. I didn't mean to refer to it is "thou shall not lock me up!!!!!!" type resistence! I agree with what you say though.
Now you are just getting nasty. We learn from those that have experience. There are many people who have used what we learn to get home safe. We would rather learn from their experiences and follow their advice than from someone who says that because they beat someone in the ring you should study with them. If that is elitist, I guess we are guilty as charged. We are not saying that we are great, so I guess you can't say that we are as egotistical as those that try to beat others in the ring. Live with it. Why are you so insecure that you need to try to prove your point in another style's forum?
I don't think it's that Ikken. I think that some people have a problem with others trying to critique something they have no experience of. As has been said now a number of times this thread was about Bujinkan training which yes differs to main stream. It wasn't about the general effectiveness of sparring it’s about sparring in relation to Bujinkan Taijutsu. Ps it's BBT not BBD God sake don't mix em up when Greg's around
You know folks there more and more time I spend on here the more I feel I understand some of Soke's quotes I've heard
I am glad that we are coming closer together in terms of our ways of thinking. I would differ in saying that even if I did well against someone in the dojo under any circumstances I still could not say with any certainty that I would do well in a real conflict. There are just too many things that differ. Mind you, I do like to challenge myself. But I feel that there needs to be a damn clear understanding that what goes on in the ring is not an indication of how well you would do in the street. In fact, sometimes the exact opposite is true. But I never hear that from the folks that post pictures of the UFC.
and this is exactly what im talking about. i thought i was talking about it. asking questions in order to learn a bit more. i never tried to prove any kind of point. i did not try and tell you how you should do things. if i came across as abrasive thats just the way i write, i can assure you it wasnt an attack.
No, Sonshu, that part was not aimed merely at you, as there have been judan's who have gone out and said the best thing they learned from Soke was "business." I'm sure we all know who I'm talking about. I'm just pointing out that even if you training in the art, because mileage does vary depending on level of understanding, quality of instructor, etc., there is the possibility for many different experiences. As far as comments about us depending on one man's experience from Japan, where did that come from? Nagato-sensei's comments get thrown around a lot because he is very vocal about the subject, but any number of the Japanese shihan, perhaps the very best practitioners in the art, as well as the other top-ranked individuals in this art, will all tell you that sparring hinders your taijutsu. Ikken, I am not sticking my fingers in my ears. I am not saying that MMA individuals and those like them cannot fight. I am simply saying that those who train the way we do -also- can fight. It is this concept that all MMA guys and all of Bullshido seem to have an issue with. We are not telling them that it would be good to try our methods for our art. That would be silly. We do two very different things. We use very different concepts. Thus, it should be that we can use our training methods to reach our goal and you should use yours. People on both sides of the argument have used their training to defend themselves successfully, and some on each side do it for their jobs nearly every day. So why are we arguing? Both methods work. I wish to gain an understanding of taijutsu to the level of the Soke of my art and I am sure you wish to gain an understanding to the level of the best Muay Thai fighter. Why are we arguing? The only time people here get upset is when people come and try to tell us how to get good at our art when they have never had experience at our art before. I don't think anyone would argue about the ability of the Japanese instructors to hold their own in combat and so why not listen to them when they offer us suggestions on how to train? I am not saying that sparring is bad. I am just saying it will not help me get good at taijutsu. Randori on occassion is fine, but I feel no need to go full contact with anyone. I train with opponent's that will resist in order to build flow and understanding and to not freeze when something doesn't work. I agree that at a certain level, resistance is important. This doesn't have to be through sparring. And I think those who give the excuse that our techniques are too "deadly" to be used in sparring are missing the most important reason that it will create flaws in our taijutsu, as if we don't have enough already. Now, can we stop accusations and let this die? There is nothing wrong with discussing, Ikken, but since this topic has been mulled over countless times before, it is old and tiresome. If this was a fresh topic, okay, let's discuss. But we've been there, done that, and on countless numbers of forums. We should be through with it. I say we lock this thread. Mr. K, can we whip out the ol' chain and padlock and put this one to rest?
I seem to have missed the questions where you come here merely seeking knowledge. Strange that all the other non-MMA types seem to have missed it as well.
I think it's very sad how some people feel the need to be aggressive towards other martial arts. This is a used cliché, but why can't we all just get along? Why feel the need to attack a martial art that does not do sparring in general? People seem to have so many misconceptions regarding what we are learning, and the people who quit the Bujinkan only do that because they don't understand it. Nobody ever said that if you learn one technique you can apply it perfectly in real life after a few months of training. From what I have seen, it takes years of taijutsu training to get the 'feeling' into your body. Taijutsu is about using your body to the max, to use each situation to your advantage. You can't learn to do that in a few months or even a few years. I have done boxing, so I can punch my way out should the need arise. That's not the issue here though. The issue isn't whether we can go into a ring and defeat a Bob Sapp-like fighter. We aren't training to do that. We train to survive in the real world. For some people this may mean to fight off criminals in their jobs as cops, for others it may mean to avoid a gang at night by running away. Can't we all just leave it at that? What it all ends at, is that we can all still die from a bullet any second, no matter which MA we are practising. Let's make the most out of our life and do what we do, and let others do what they do. A healthy discussion is always good of course, but should never be a throwing around of aggressive opinions.
I am almost fifty years old and have been training in the Bujinkan for about 20 years and have not formally taught or have been taught how to spar but I have on the odd occasion accepted a challenge in my dojo in front of my students from students fresh from their system and well versed and trained in the sparring way and despite my middle age and their youth and experience I have never 'lost.' It appears that they try too hard to win while I just work to survive. Without sparring experience I managed to work for 22 years as a doorman and bodyguard without any undue calamities due to my inexperience. Sparring can help, just as strength and fitness can but they are not absolute requirements to survival.
This statement is very true regardless of whether someone is an experienced UFC geezer or somebody that doesn't engage 'advanced movement exercises ' (or sparring for want of a better expression! Maybe a more suitable expression would be that expanding a person's experience base increases the 'likelihood of survival' with the brown stuff does hit the fan. As always there as no guarantees.
Either way, just go back and read all the other threads that discuss this same topic. They all read the same. Why have another? I hate getting off topic about training. We need more training-related threads. One's related to how to improve taijutsu, not what people think we should be doing who have no experience in what we do or who haven't ever trained with the Japanese shihan or one of the high-ranking foreign shihan. That never gets us anywhere because people outside of our art never understand. You think we're being arrogant. Most of us think you all can fight just fine, but we want to use a different path to become capable at protecting ourselves on the street. Why is there the need to tell us we're doing things wrong? I definitely don't say do that with other arts. I really just think this thread should be locked. It isn't serving any point. In fact, I think any thread not dealing with something that benefits those that train in this art should be locked, because more often than not, it's something that's been discussed before if it is off topic and from someone outside of our art.
Locking the thread is what always seems to happen as soon as objections come up. It does even less to improve the general awareness or image of the art. To understand self defence you need to expose yourself a bit.
I can live with that. Just make sure you don't train in a simulation of combat so much or with an outlook warped so much that you are training for the simulation and not combat. Harder to do it than to say it.
People are not being agressive we are discussing The you did not understand it thing come up to anyone who did not get on with Ninjtitsu and seems to be the stock answer irrespective of how good you were or what you did, also every art trains to use its body to the max. Most people do this for martial arts anyhow either as a sports fighter or just self defence again nothing different about Ninjitsu there. No agression from me or Ikken I dont think just some people getting very defensive when there is no need - talking and discussion is what forums are for.
Sonshu, I don't lock threads because of the discussion or dispute that arises. I lock them because they start to serve no purpose. If you can't see the difference, oh well. The original discussion was about sparring and taijutsu as it relates to the Bujinkan. NOT about whether sparring is a valid form of training. Some arts/teachers want to include sparring. Fine. The majority in the Bujinkan don't. Live with it. I don't want to fight like the Gracies or Ken Shamrock or Mike Tyson or Chuck Norris. I want to move like our Soke does. Why? Because I feel, for me, that his way is the right way for me. Lots of other people agree. If Soke or one of the Shihan say sparring builds bad habits, and I can compare that to my own past experience and agree, then I don't spar anymore. If I lock this thread, it's not because the discussion is not going where "I" want it. It's because no benefit is being gained by keeping it open. And frankly, that seems to be where it's headed.
six pages of discussion of a topic beaten to death several times! Everyone is free to train, practice in whatever art they prefer for whatever goals they want. We comment many times that training can only be achieved through actual training. So if a person is interested in training methology in a certain martial arts then go train in it, don't like it, fine do something else. But lets not keep going round and round trying to get another art's practioner to see our point of view. If you interested in Learning Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, train in a Dojo and frequent the 'Ninjutsu' section of this forum(that satement applies to all MA's just replace BBT with chosen MA).
