Sparring and Taijutsu:

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by zenpokaiten, Feb 21, 2006.

  1. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Guilty as charged: 14 years in sparring-oriented arts before commencing my (so far) 22 years of Bujinkan training. I agree with the comment attributed to Nagato sensei that sparring is not necessary to become good at our art. He did go into a bit of a rant about this last year with a judan-level student of mine in his class, around this time last year.

    Absolutely right. I do feel that some forms of occasional randori or free-play are extremely useful, and you've given a couple of excellent examples.

    Part of the problem with this sort of debate is agreeing on baseline definitions. What one person may think of as "sparring", another may not. When I think of the term, I tend to think of a competitive contest, more the sort of attitude expressed by groundcontrolba:

    Different people, of course, have different experiences, and I and my students have had our own occasional run-ins with people from competitive "jujitsu" styles. We've tried to take it easy and forgive them, for they knew not what they did, and the only real injuries to them have been a knockout/concussion in one case and a torn rotator cuff in another.

    Up here in the North, anyway. My "oldest surviving student" relocated to Brazil about 3 years ago and is currently the senior Bujinkan instructor in the country. Initially he had these guys coming into his dojo with chips on their shoulders ALL the time. Seldom happens now. . .
     
  2. xplasma

    xplasma Banned Banned

    Guess what? Japanese have a long history of competitions and sparring. Also, you beloved Takamatsu spend 10 years of his life traveling China and ...... sparring!

    It survived by using the techniques and going to battle. When not in battle they sparred with each other.

    You would think I was in an Aikido Forum with all this hippy talk.

    You lose!
     
  3. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I am not a "practitioner" of ninjutsu, though I am somewhat familiar with the art, having taken a few months worth of lessons with my brother. Hopefully I will not suffer the same warm welcome as Groundcontrolba.

    My brother has been practicing kung fu with me for about 3 years, and has been doing Ninjutsu for about 2 years (I beleive he is 5th kyu), and we spar regularly in our kung fu class (twice a week for ~ an hour). We would probably be laughed at by the MMA guys for calling what we do "sparring," as it is very controlled, medium paced, with medium contact: no gloves, no pads, no mats. We work on timing, strategy, balance, control, accuracy, demonstration of power and implementing new techniques or improving the implementation of old ones. My brother has gained a lot of skill in his ninjutsu techniques through this type of sparring. Being somewhat familiar with the techniques, I have seen him use a multitude of techniques and concepts from his ninjutsu, including evasion and striking (kicks, punches, and the funny ninjutsu chop, arm locks, throws, sweeps, pins, and even some of the really nasty stuff. His sparring doesn't look like kickboxing with some judo thrown in. He uses the kung fu as his base (as it has a good stance, good balance, good basic boxing skills), and works in many ninjutsu techniques to build upon that base.

    I think this type of training has greatly improved my brother's taijutsu. When we glove up and put on pads (which isn't very often), he is able to apply by-the-book ninjutsu techniques on all levels to sparring.
     
  4. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    Historically some ryuha engaged in sparring, some didn't. Enough of both types have survived to the present to indicate that either approach can work if done correctly. For a good historic overview with pretty much all the pros and cons laid out, see http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26126

    The initial poster is talking about kenjutsu, but the thread does get into weaponless stuff as well, and it's very worthwhile reading.

    Regardless of what Takamatsu sensei or previous generations of our various ryuha may have done, the fact remains that Hatsumi sensei and his shihan in Japan feel that sparring is not necessary to become effective at Hatsumi sensei's budo. My own experience supports this.
     
  5. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Allow me to retort: If you want to learn THIS art, not whatever the heck you think you are doing....

    I doubt very strongly that you (groundcontrolba) have trained in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for very long nor have you had much (if any) experience with Soke or the Shihan. This is precisely why Paul started a separate thread complaining about people who don't know what they are talking about giving actual opinions about "THIS ART" when, in fact, they don't know THIS ART.

    Now, if Alex (who I know has trained in this art for quite a while) has an opinion about sparring, I *MAY* listen to him. Yet, if I were drop Alex into a cage with Nagato-sensei, I think the 60-year-old Japanese guy would be the one still standing in one piece. :D I may be wrong but I don't think Alex would be offended by me saying this....

    Precisely those words. More than once. Whenever someone was stupid enough to ask. :rolleyes: Recall, I trained with Nagato religiously for several years. He absolutely believed that sparring (in the sense that Dale is criticizing) hindered progress in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.

    Now, I don't know who "groundcontrolba" is (perhaps Sonshu's long lost cousin :rolleyes: ), but I am pretty confident that if I were to drop him in that same cage with Nagato-sensei, the result would be the same as with Alex. And until "groundcontrolba" or "Sonshu" or anyone else who touts the benefits of sparring IN LEARNING OUR ART can move like Nagato-sensei, Noguchi-sensei, Soke, etc., the entire debate is moot.

    I wanna move like Soke and Nagato-sensei, not like Mike Tyson or Ken Shamrock.

    -ben
     
  6. groundcontrolba

    groundcontrolba Banned Banned

    First I would like to thank Dale and Yohan for their courtesy and openmindedness. I dont practice your art but I have met people that do and I see their skill and respect their dedication. Ben, brother you have that beaten spouse syndrome thing going on. I might do BJJ but Im not here to put down your art . I merely gave my humble opinion on the value of live sparring.I didnt know this was an exclusive ninja only club. I personally like to improve my skill set so I like to hear wise council no matter what style it comes from.
     
  7. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Then why do you come into this forum saying, "This discussion is an argument about learning to swim without getting into the water.Sparring is not fighting but its close enough to show you holes in your game without you getting your head bashed in.Is sparring the most important aspect? Perhaps not but it is near the top of the list."

    You are expressing an opinion about the value of sparring in an art that you know nothing about! Think about it.

    You also go on to express, "If you want to learn this art for some spiritual enlightenment exercise or just because you think its fun well go ahead and do it your way. If you plan on using this on anyone outside your training hall well you are in for a rude awakening if you dont spar.

    Again, you don't know ANYTHING about "this art" but you want to tell us how to learn it! Come on.

    You were not here to "hear wise council." End of story.

    -ben
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2006
  8. Cuchulain

    Cuchulain Valued Member

    Ha ha! Seriously, that’s funny. No I am not offended by the analogy, and I would in fact agree with it. I guess what prompted me to take part in this conversation is the pervasive idea that these training methods are mutually exclusive – people feel the need to pitch their flag in one camp or another. I know loads of Bujinkan teachers, and not just in my home country, that use aspects of this training idea to illustrate certain points in training. (It’s a telling sign that they aren’t getting upset about it and posting online). However, I feel Dale is absolutely correct to state that there can be problems with definitions – what do you mean by sparring?

    Again, I am not advocating a competitive mentality or training method over conventional Bujinkan training. Not even slightly. All I have said is that I have learned something useful from the experience of defending myself under pressure - using gloves and a safe environment seems like a good way to give people a taste of something that’s hard but not impossible to otherwise reproduce. For the record, I don’t think this is the only way to give yourself a stressful situation to see how you react. In the past I’ve found public demonstrations similarly trying, for example, and I have also found it useful to use training drills to the point of extreme fatigue before asking people to perform their kihon.

    Fair enough, not a lot I can say to that. I have heard him say it’s not necessary, which I took to mean just that – you can get there without it, but I will defer to your experience and cunning linguistic abilities. :)

    Which is all very well until you rack up the extremely large number of people I personally know who have. Decorated police officers, protection specialists, prison officers and law enforcement personnel, but hey, absolutes are more comforting, aren’t they?
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2006
  9. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    So, during sparring, you can tell the difference between those that spar and those that dont. That makes sense. So those that dont spar, arent very good at sparring. Which is also a semi-sound conclusion. The jump from, those that dont spar are bad at fighting, is the problem.
     
  10. Banpen Fugyo

    Banpen Fugyo 10000 Changes No Surprise

    Which also makes me think... What's going on is a test of skill. Perfectly fine. You want to compare your skill to somene elses. Nothing wrong with that. But you'll always be 2nd best. Maybe even 3rd best. What if your 400th best! There is always someone better than you. Thus, I repost, for the 100th time:

    http://www.budotech.com/jvm/nagato2.html
     
  11. Brad Ellin

    Brad Ellin Baba

    xplasma, if you would like to continue posting here, contribute something to the discussion and drop the attitude and witty" remarks. That's your only warning. And the only warning for anyone else having the same ideas.

    I'm with the majority here. Sparring is detrimental to learning Soke's budo. Like Dale and Ben, I spent many years doing other (sprring) arts before this. And had to unlearn (and probably still am) all the bad habits I picked up. Nowadays, I don't spar and politely refuse requests to do so. Instead, if they are interested, I invite them to try out a class and then they can decide for themselves.
     
  12. stephenk

    stephenk Valued Member

  13. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    I think you have hit the nail on the head.

    A lot of problems I see with sparring is that the person wants to win. Training should be about learning. But people train to win in sparring instead of using sparring for training. The goal of a UFC fighter is to win the UFC. My goal is to survive on the street.

    I can imagine teaching someone several arm releases and having them try them on someone trying to hold them. If the grabber can counter one, they should try to move into another. This might train them to not rely on just one technique.

    Is that sparring? Is it kata training? No to both. But maybe it could help. But if you concentrate too much on how well you do, you may ignore the other hand of his. That would be a bad habit. And you may do something in this training that the other guy won't take advantage of- like if you leave your eyes open to a gouging attack. If a teacher is not standing by to point out mistakes like that, again you can ingrain bad habits.

    When people start doing things that involve "winning" or keeping score, it is no longer a combat art. When people talk about how they can beat others in the ring, they are sportsmen and no more.
     
  14. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

  15. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Why do I get the feeling that there will be a lot less people on MAP in the near future?

    Actually, I think XPlasma started that thread over there because he was unable to make a convincing argument over here.
     
  16. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    because i post on both forums (which i have never held as a secret) makes me a troll when i post my opinions here? got paranoia?
     
  17. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    no not really, it just shows you as a mindless child rubbishing map!!
     
  18. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    ive contributed more to this website than you have buddy. if you stepped outside of your ninja bubble this might be more apparent.
     
  19. Kikaku

    Kikaku Gakorai Tosha Akuma Fudo

    Then step off your high horse for a minute buddy.Realize that you have no reason for taking the moral high ground, when you're making childish sweeping generalizations against the Bujinkan :rolleyes:
     
  20. Ikken Hisatsu

    Ikken Hisatsu New Member

    .... what the hell are you talking about. where did i make any sweeping generalisation, here or in that thread on bullshido. would be great if you pointed that out to me.
     

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