This isn't really a Taiji specific post but it kind of relates to Taiji in the less is more approach. I was reading through some rag recently and came across one of those "Learn my self defense system" single page ads which was Sydney based. With the increase of general street crime and personal attack on the rise within Sydney of late I was heartened to read the results of one guy who had learned this self defense system. To paraphrase... "I was walking with my girlfriend one evening past Hoyts cinema complex on George St... (This was a notorious spot for attacks and punch ups when I was a teenager in the 80's! and still is, Syd) when I was attacked by two men infront of 50 people who stood, watched and did nothing. I have never been in a fight in my life and was terrified. But (nameless)'s street fighting training just took over and in a second I had snapped one guys elbow while the other guy ran off scared in the wake of his friends screams of agony." Somebody else mentioned a similar incident where a guy was under multiple attack and as they had him against a wall, one of them raised a leg to kick. The response of the victim was to grab the leg and roll into some kind of leg bar snapping the guys knee .The guy screamed and then passed out. The other attackers were stunned for long enough for the victim to make good his getaway. In Taiji many of the strikes and shots we are taught are fatal and it's important that we train these and have them in our arsenal. But it is often the lesser moves we are advised to employ if we are to stay out of prison under a charge of manslaughter or even murder. If they can prove in court that you know martial arts and train/practice certain fatal attacks or defense, that could well be a murder charge. There are however many ocassions in the various applications of Taiji when a knee break and an arm or elbow break are very easily employed and as such I feel that these should be the first consideration. It doesn't look like much in training or even feel like you've done anything special but an arm break or a knee break can be the end of an attack if you can execute it early enough in the melee to get your point across. You might not think so but if you break someones arm or leg during a fight you can bet your bottom dollar they're not going to be too interested in continuing. Leaving you to walk away without someone's blood on your hands and one would hope a relatively clear conscience. Even if the situation is justified, nobody wants to have someone elses life on their conscience. As is evidenced above, even under multiple attack if you can seriously injure an opponent, with a broken limb, the screams of their buddy are surely going to get their attention, making the point that you might not be such a suitable target afterall, giving you enough time perhaps to run. You can't however count on anything in a fight and ofcourse anything could, can and usually does happen. I just wanted to point out how much attention a good arm and knee break gets you if you can get it on without having to employ a throat, temple or neck strike that might see you in jail. Less is often more... Best, Syd
Not that I am into attacking people, but if I ever where and someone broke one of my bones I envisage that it would definitely stop me in my tracks. It would also probably make me very wary of that person in the future. I can recall seeing fights, even at school, where someone gave someone else an almighty pasting, or even one massive blow that convincingly ended the fight. What happened was that person was suddenly elevated to being one of the school 'hards' and no one would go near them for fear of receiving said blow themselves. Although not wishing to advocate violence, as i am sure Syd doesnt wish to either, if you DO find yourself under attack by some numbskull, breaking an arm or a leg (particularly near a joint) is going to end that attack immediately. And I would lay money on it creating a bit if hesitation in any fellow numbskulls who were on scene. Also, although it may not be nice to consider, your attacker is in for some painful recuperation. Hopefully they will use that time to realise what an arsehole they were in attacking someone else amd that the pain they are now experiencing is the result of their own stupidity.
David, We must be around the same age mate. I was absolutely fanatical about Hong Kong Phooey when I was a kid. I even had all these Kalkitos cards with all the scratch on characters and HKP that were adapted from the cartoon. Everytime I see your avatar I have to smile! Whohoooo! *L* Best to ya, Syd
Check that Muay Tai (sp?) video of the guys leg snapping...if you can't stand (w/a broken leg) you can't fight very well.
Sometimes I contemplate getting cable tv just to get Hong Kong Phooey I've seen the video of that broken leg fight but I can't find it in google right now. Rgds, David
Good post. The fact is that if you're not looking for a fight and the fight comes to you, you will probably be up against more than one person. The best two ways to get out of it then are; a. practice your sprinting, or b. take out one of them so efficiently that the others will be too shaken up to join in. Most fights are a flurry of arms and hooks to the head, with a few soccer kicks thrown in. In taiji, with our close-contact (and especially push hands) training, we're in a good position to take advantage of that. Most punks on the street are after a quick win with a blitz attack - they leave themselves open to all sorts of crazy joint popping. The more I learn about chin na (and practice bagua), the more I like these kinds of attacks. Syd, that reminds me - let me know when you're free in the weekends, it'd be great to start up those park training sessions again for 2004
Within Urban Street I feel that comon sense(dealing with the situation in a non confrontational way)enviromental awarness,understand what counts(your life and loved one) and some basic psychology comes first. I also totally agree with the above posted strategies.But ofcause depending on how you read the aggressors,taking one out could just infuriate them,perhaps take one out and then run I would like to say that controling and breaking limbs is by no means easy.It requires timing distance, angles, softening(strikes in order to distract or injure to allow greater chance of manipulation) of higher refinement then just laying them out(punching the **** out of them) While I am sure the former is a goal of your(is) IMA practise I wanted to say it is far from just a matter of popping limbs. One of the advantages of taking an opponent to the ground(I didn't say yourself as well)is that it removes a plain of movement available(reducing the chance of the aggressor "spasming out" of a break/lock)giving you a better chance of applying a lock/break/ choke quickly and successfully.I have seen many a person shake out of wrist locks and arm bars before significant pressure/force was applied when both in the vertical. Syd,Nzric If the offer is still open I would like to get to your Park sessions some time in 04.Please invite Soggy Cat as well
NZric, I'm cool to start training any of the next coming Sundays. Shoot me a mail of your upcoming schedule and let's take it from there, eh? Kat, You don't need an invite my friend, the thing is open to anyone who wants to turn up and likes training applications. I am sure looking forward to learning a a few things from a grapplers perspective. Can you shoot me a mail so we can co-ordinate days and times? Best to all, Syd
Kat, I see your point about controlling the limbs, but (and I'm a layman here so I may be wrong) do you think the fact that many people don't expect locks/breaks in a fight situation gives the advantage to the quick dislocations in chin na? I'm not talking about restraint/wrestling movements, or leading them to the ground - I'm thinking more along the lines of slapping a (wrist?) lock on someone, giving them a hard shake to damage the joint/tendons, then release? I'm free most Sundays. Could do next Sunday at Centennial Park? Anyone's welcome - no invites necessary.
Nzric, Yes I feel slapping and jerking opponents who are not accustomed to it,would be very effective.I feel the timing would place pirority in training then.Surprise is a tactic, one you can be made aware of rather then practise.And Opportunity against a commited attack. On techniques I practise I feel these fall more into Break Balance leading to greater control.I don't believe I will break, tear or dislocate a limb,if that occurs all the better. I feel this style of techniques are just the start (closeing, sticking ) of your finish rather then a finish in itself.Generally I find some sort of distraction(softening break balance) must come before a break,if this happens in the one movement so be it,but understand the training behind it.Intergrate that training at speed with correct distance against commited attacks. I don't really doubt any thing's effectiveness given right training and situation, although some things can be a lot easier to perform(in relation to timeing and movement under stress) then other things I feel there are many other options that I would rather focus on within training. Alone, these tech fall into the high risk area.If a Instructor tells students Yes this is high risk, expect and train to move into something else. Fine. Timing and Distance and the fact that even committed opponents react just as fast as trained people.If this split second reaction determines the effectiveness of a break that is pivotal for your defense then I would call this high risk.
Have a look at these real life confrontations. http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5783 http://www.asylumnation.com/asylum/_r/showthread/threadid_16293/
SC, Volience is on the increase within Sydney and Australia in general.And a lot of people practise MA. Please elaborate a little more,what are your main points in relation to this thread.
I'd start to think twice about the police system if they didn't begin by treating a samurai sword/knife weilding attempted murderer (even in his own home) as suspicious. SC - I don't see your point either. This is also the truth: Sydney has an unusually high incidence of unprovoked group attacks/gang bangs. These often involve knives and guns, or else the weapons are found on the scene. These happen every day, like the recent murder of the kid returning from the Metallica concert, and many cases of guys killed for walking with their girlfriend. I personally know five people who have been put in hospital by groups of thugs in Sydney under the same circumstances. Four of these times were incidents against the ones who drive around in vehicle packs with mobile phones and knives. In all five, the person I know stepped in to defend someone he thought was being assaulted. The last time, the guy (a workmate's friend's son) died from his knife wounds. Or what about a couple of weeks ago, when someone was stabbed to death for giving a young guy and his brother "the eye" in the weights area of a gym. There have been some high profile cases of gang rapes in Sydney. Not the usual ones, but organised groups of young guys who actively "hunt" for girls on trains, abduct them and take them to a pre-arranged location, then call their friends to come and claim the "prize". How many did they catch? more than 12, I think. The truth is, if you are not looking for a fight and the fight comes to you, most of the time they'll have their friends there/SMS'd and on their way, and there'll be a couple of knives. You don't have much choice other than to stop the confrontation the moment it starts.
Regarding the issue of the "Leb style" attacks on those Sydney girls... I have it on good authority that one of those Lebanese guys was gang banged by his prison mates who said "Now we're going to give it to you Aussie style!" He was raped without remorse in revenge for the attacks and the blatant anti Australian attitudes that Aussie women were pigs. *shudder*
My morals are soooo twisted right now. Yep, we all know how the eye for an eye idea is outdated, primitive and it hasn't done much for the progress of the countries that practice it.... but then I read about what those guys did and I'm glad justice was done, in a way. Maybe about 20 years more of that prison cell justice and he'd have an idea of how the girl felt.
In both cases ( see links), the fight took place in the defenders' territory. It adds weight to the self defence position. Nzric, whilst I accept and understand and accept the accounts related by , they are not about the same kind of thing I am alluding to. I can quote 4 examples in last 3 years , of friends ( not friends of friends), where they were severely bashed, some hospitalised even though they had handed over their wallets. 1 All 4 incidences involved multiple on one attackers 2. One situation had 3 teenage boys + 2 girlfriends who also kicked my friend in the head. So watch out for the girls too. 3. One involved a baseball bat on the head 4. All were robbery situations, all victims were male 5. Not all of them are Middle Eastern 6. Where the attacks happened: Parramatta Train Stn, Outside Parramatta Fitness First gym, Crown St / Surry Hills , Artamon train Stn. I was brought up to not resist and hand over my wallet when mugged. But it is a recent trend in Sydney that robbers have this need to humiliate and bash the victim even after he has complied and given up his wallet . Maybe it is away to assert superiority, or to convince themselves that the victim deserved to be robbed ? My current stance is , if I am robbed, I will comply ( esp if knives/guns are involved) but I am ready for the subsequent bashing. If I am outnumbered, and I end up in hospital, I am determined to bring at least one of them with me. Best to be always prepared.
