some class clips

Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by middleway, Aug 16, 2006.

  1. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    Last edited: Aug 16, 2006
  2. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    i think you forgot to upload the clip with the grappler.
     
  3. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    ha ha ha ... (here it all comes!) :woo: :D

    your probably right. (have edited the original post to be more accurate)

    cheers
    chris
     
  4. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    alright, well i personally have never seen anyone pull a move like that, grappler or not. he didn't look like he was committing either, as his arm kind of froze near your head instead of following through. i really don't think it's a good idea to be completely stationary while a hand/fist is coming toward your head either, because realistically, it's going to be a punch, and just hitting a body shot isn't going to negate the punch. there are more safe and effective counters, i'm sure you know that. so is there something i'm missing here?
     
  5. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    He came in for a hip throw i struck him with good foce to stop his forward momentum and negate the power in his arm that was coming around my head to grip for a throw. Notice i move back after the power of the strike has gone in. he did come in with good force but nothing reached his arm .... also i moved to the side slightly which you cant see on the video.

    It is remarkably difficult to get past this sort of hit when you have the mindset to throw ... one of the keys is that it comes from nowhere and has alot of force behind it. The guy comes in, your just stood there ... then his ribs are broken. Its very hard to see in video.

    The attackers intension in this movement is to grab hold of you and throw you down. Using this 'stop' strike isnt force against force but is a line through his structure. The hit ruins his structure first and formost and damages him negating his forward force. This students ribs were injured quite badly ... may be broken. Which i was very appologetic about.

    I totally understand your coments and agree them, but remeber this is from class. not real fighting.

    cheers
    Chris
     
  6. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    the thing that bothers me is that he could have just as easily been throwing a hook or an overhand or something, and i doubt you'd be able to distinguish between that and whatever he was doing if you didn't already know what was coming. by the time you had stopped him with that body shot, he was well within striking range, and had he decided to hit you instead of trying to grab, you would have eaten it.

    aside from that, i really don't think that what he was doing was in any way realistic. if you want to get into clinching range, you don't just try to reach out and grab the person's head...doing that leaves you open for pretty much anything the other guy can come up with.

    i realise that you two weren't actually fighting or anything, and i'm probably sounding like i'm nitpicking. it's just that i'm having difficulty seeing how something like that could actually be used effectively outside of static drills.
     
  7. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    Nice one Chris :D (I'll send some healing to your student also)

    Mr Skrom
    Your comments are largely irrelevant imho
    I wonder how much you know about the art in question? - xing yi ploughs straight through the opponent's structure regardless of what he throws at you.
    That's the whole point of it.
    So whatever the guy is doing, Chris is basically destroying his whole structure in one go, regardless.
    This is also a training situation - if he practiced xing yi 'full-bore' in training Chris would have nobody to train with after one evening - they'd all be in hospital lol
    Now, Chris is a way superior MAist to myself - I've met him and been hit by him, trust me he's going to stop just about anyone who comes at him - and he did tell you he may have busted the guy's ribs (at training speed and pressure mind) also note the guy dropped - so all the "what if what if" stuff is BS really, because the guy is decommissioned - end of story.
    I also love these 'what if' questions about training tbh :rolleyes:
    I regularly get asked them when I'm demonstrating stuff in classes and each time I have to show more pressure on my partner to debunk the question! (eg "no, they can't swing round and hit me with the other arm because I'm breaking their elbow and they're too busy screaming for their mummy... etc")
    It's good clip showing a good technique working in a set situation - the same technique would work well under free conditions but be much much more dangerous for the poor bugger trying to stot Chris in the head... waddaya want? Blood?
    :Angel:
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  8. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    no, i don't know much about the art in question. that's why i'm here asking about it, because i really don't understand it (although i admit my original purpose was just to make sure he didn't get away with calling that guy a grappler :p ). i made some observations and explained why it didn't make sense to me, middleway responded, i responded back, and we had the beginnings of what you might call a discussion, or maybe a debate.

    you don't have to take it as a personal attack when someone questions your views. really.
     
  9. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    What sort of throw was that going to be?
     
  10. Visage

    Visage Banned Banned

    Nice stuff Chris! :D

    I can't wait to see some of your stuff at the Meet :)
     
  11. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    Thanks TJB ... not sure about me being a 'way superior martial artist to yourself! ;) Im a beginner! But thanks all the same.

    I agree that its hard to justify or explain the what ifs ... normally i just say to people 'try' and then see how it works ... if they hit me, they hit me! and i learn something!

    It is interesting that people expect they can go full bore at a teacher and not expect to be hurt! ;)

    Skrom,

    This may be true ...

    but striking in the way shown will essentially twist in and stop the force of that side of the body coming forward, Its like you get all that power in his hit, throw whatever and keep it in him, breaking his structure completely. you see the reaction that his structure just disappears and he falls to the ground.

    I really find it hard to discribe without physically showing it!!

    He was going for a hip throw.

    similar to this [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NtpjMTKFyI"]MMA Blog - July 20 - 2006 - 03 - Throws & Takedowns - YouTube[/ame]

    the arm was going to swing around behind the head as he twisted his hips in and flicks me off them.

    nothing for people to get all upset about.

    I understand your Views Skrom and without you feeling for yourself ... it will be hard to understand. Your welcome at my class any time.

    Kindest Regards.

    Chris
     
  12. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    in the video, they were already clinching. there's much less danger of him getting punched in the face since he's so close and has some control over the opponent. you don't normally go for a throw unless you are in that range, as far as i know.

    i kind of see what you're saying about stopping his rotation with the punch. it seems like it could work in theory, and since i haven't tried it and you have, i'll take your word for it. so assuming that it does work, there are three problems i see with it:

    1. you have to react to his punch, throw your own punch (full force), and get there before he does...that's a pretty small window.
    2. you have to KNOW that he's going to throw a hook (i'm just going to call it a hook, because i'm not buying the throw). if you think he's going to throw a hook and he throws a straight or something, you could be in trouble.
    3. you have to be bigger or stronger than him. if he's really swinging for the fences and your punch isn't strong enough to completely stop his rotation, then you will most certainly take the hit since you have no guard.

    i know it would be a lot easier if we could just work it out in person, but i don't know where you train and i probably wouldn't be able to get there if i did. one more question - do you spar, and have you applied this successfully in sparring?
     
  13. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    hi Skom,

    I do spar on occasion, normally it doesnt last so long. But i also work in the security industry so have tried this sort of work agianst real attackers alot more than in sparring. I have never had a problem.

    To address your questions:

    In the video clip i do react quicker and fast than him. Its not so much about timing but more about action and reaction. Reacting to his movement and intent to do something. note that he is in motion and commiting to his attack and i havnt even moved at that point. The responce i apply is just more efficiant. that is what makes it effective.

    This is what is heard alot. BUT ... you have to remember that if he does something else SO DO I. It shouldnt be taken as a defeat all method ... just a natural reaction to a certain movement. If he does a different movement so do I. Its really as simple as that. I dont commit to my 'technique' as you can see but take the opportunity that presents itself in that moment. This a really effective way to fight. Not pre concieving any notion or tactic but just Acting appropriatly and naturally at the right time to what is given to you.

    No. Here is the problem with video. I am not opposing his force ... this is the mistake to make. then you will certainly loose. What i am doing is attaking on a slight angle to his force finding a 'line' through his structure to stop his power.

    This guy IS actually bigger and stronger than me. Taller, fitter, could probably bench more, Very experienced fighter in sparring etc etc. But still it dropped him. It is not about strength but clever use of force. If i went force against force in real life i would be dead by now i am sure.

    Also in real life you dont walk around with a Guard up. look at the position i start from ... this is reality. should we accept that without a guard you will always get hit if the guy is bigger or stronger. If this is the case you WILL always get hit unless you spend your life walking around with a guard up?!?

    Hope that answered some of your questions. Like i say i DO agree with alot of what your saying but please dont take this video in isolation.

    I teach in Gloucestershire. like i say your welcome down to feel this sort of work ... no hard feelings or challanges just a friendly exchange ... Im sure i would learn something.

    Happy training
    chris
     
  14. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    yes, but in the video clip you know what he's about to do.

    i wasn't trying to imply that you would actually try to use this particular counter against anything anyone throws at you. i realize it's meant specifically for a hook or something similar. what i was saying is that you can't always be sure of what he's going to throw at you. you might think he's going to hook, so you throw the hook counter, and get hit in the face with a cross.

    what you're saying about just reacting appropriately and naturally to whatever he gives you sounds good in theory, but it doesn't work 100% of the time in practice. as such, i think defense should be a priority, because one mistake or mis-calculation could get you KO'ed or worse if you've got no safety net.

    that's entirely possible, and i won't argue against it since i know that it would be difficult to explain or prove without a demonstration.

    you're absolutely right, but even without having your hands up, you can move out of the way. in the clip you had no guard and no movement...i can understand why you wouldn't want to move if you need to be in that position to counter, but it's kind of crazy to do that unless you have some kind of safety net, like a guard. especially with that counter, because you either hit that shot full force at just the right time, or you take the punch full on.

    by far the easiest and safest thing to do (in my opinion) if someone attacks you while you aren't ready is move out of the way, whether it's by leaning back, ducking, slipping, or just stepping away really fast. i just don't like the idea of staying put and relying on being able to react quickly enough to counter whatever he does without putting up any kind of defense whatsoever.
     
  15. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    This wasnt a set technique ... just said ... try and throw me ... so no i didnt know what he was about to do.

    This is interesting but you are still working from the assumption that this is a set technique 'a hook counter'. Which it is not. It is the use of a principle in responce to the movement HE MADE. if lets say he did this exact movement and followed it with a cross after i hit him i would change and adapt as was needed.

    the issue i have with what your saying is that it HAS worked 100% of the time in REALITY. I have been in many many physical confrontations with multiple opponents, people with weapons, drugged up thugs etc etc. The Act appropriately thing works very well.

    Something you mention above is mis calculation. If you are reacting to movement and stimulus ... you do not 'calculate' anything you just act. Thinking too much is what gets people knocked out or hospitalised ... i have seen it many times.

    Watch the clip again ... i move to the side.

    But if you look at the whole principle here. I 'stop' his force. it has no more forward potensial ... what damage can it realistically do to. Even if his hand connects it wont be as bad as what i have done to him.

    there is a saying in Xing Yi.

    Sacrifice 30% of your army to win the war.

    I might have a bruised cheek ... he will have a colapsed ribcage. ;)

    I agree in some respects. It is a vary rare occasion when my other hand isnt checking or Guarding. If it isnt then i dont feel its needed in that moment.

    Again you shouldnt judge this clip as a rule i live by. Checking and guarding are fundimental principles of combat which i advocate ALOT.

    You dont like the idea of being able to react quick enough to deliver a strike that shoots out like a flinch responce ... but think you could react and move away really fast....

    http://www.ukinternalarts.co.uk/media/chris_fast6.wmv

    This is some reaction training stuff ...

    Give me a choice of hitting the guy the instant his attack starts or 'just stepping away really fast' i choose to hit the guy! ;)

    The defence in this clip is the strike. The block is against his total body .. not just his arm ... This is the defence your seeing.

    Let me ask you ... If you have time to put up a guard, lets say raise an arm to block ... wouldnt a hit be just as quick but actually damage him instead of letting him keep all his power?

    interesting discussion

    Thanks
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  16. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    You know what they say skrom "attack is the best form of defence". has some value to it i think. By the time you get out the way or parried he's mounting his next attack. So why not just get in there with some nifty angulation to boot.

    Ifyou aren't ready, then you aren't ready to move out the way either, if you can do something then surely it is
    more efficient or easier getting in, whilst taking another
    line or angle to the attack. Essentially you are gettin out the way striking and braking his momentum at the same time. Pretty efficient I'd say. If you can nail it, like evrything it takes practice and a bit of luck. You know well enough you have to expect to eat a few in a fight, It's the last thing you should be worrying about!
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2006
  17. Taiji Butterfly

    Taiji Butterfly Banned Banned

    whaaa...? :confused:
    Who's taking anything personally?
    Not me bud - I'm just commenting on the much overrated skills of clipology and bystander fighter-commentary that regularly infests MAP and putting things back into perspective.
    If you really want to find out how this stuff works, I suggest you go play with Chris and see what it's like from the "cockpit view".
    He's a good guy, I'm sure he'd be happy to show you...

    :Angel:
     
  18. Skrom

    Skrom Banned Banned

    forgive any errors, this thing is too damn long to proofread.

    maybe it's just me, but i always thought that when a martial arts video clip is posted on a martial arts forum, it's there for discussion. that's what forums are for, as far as i know.

    i live across the ocean from him. but again, that's what forums are for...to learn about different things when flying over the ocean isn't an option.





    it kind of is though. if you tried to do the same thing to counter a cross, then it probably wouldn't work, and it definitely wouldn't work if he had better reach than you. i think it's fair to call it a hook counter if the only thing it can work on is a hook or something similar.

    but anyway, the point i was trying to make was that you're not always going to know what he's going to throw at you, and you're not going to always see it coming in time (or at all). it's entirely possible to think he's going to hook when he's actually going to throw a cross or an overhand, and that's why i was skeptical about the lack of a guard and/or head movement.

    that's great that it has worked 100% of the time for you so far, but you can't realistically say that it will continue to work 100% of the time. nothing does, because we are human and we make mistakes. if you sparred often and with lots of different people, i'm pretty sure your 100% rating would drop quite a bit.

    yes, but by the looks of it, you didn't move nearly soon enough to avoid his swing. if his hand had continued to move toward your head, he would have connected. technically it doesn't matter since you countered, but had the counter failed, your movement wasn't enough to get yourself out of danger. of course, it's possible that it's just a bad camera angle, but that's what it looked like to me.

    i see what you're saying, but again, people make mistakes. if, for whatever reason, your counter didn't work, you had no defense. even if you haven't made a mistake yet, you have to take into account the possibility that it could happen.

    quote]Again you shouldnt judge this clip as a rule i live by.[/quote]
    i'm not. i just assume that since you're showing this move to your students, you have confidence in it.

    moving your head is a lot quicker, easier, and more reliable than countering without moving and hoping you're faster than him. it only takes a twitch to move out of the way, and that is definitely faster than getting your weight behind a punch and getting it to it's target. generally less distance to cover too.

    as for hitting the guy the instant his attack starts...that depends on whether or not you're faster than him. what you're essentially doing is racing a guy with a head start and beating him by a relatively safe interval. i wouldn't take a chance like that against someone i don't know.

    i don't have so much of a problem with this, because you are both blocking and moving along with the strike. i'm not sure how much power you can generate while moving backwards, but either way, you played that one pretty safe.

    technically yes, but there's no guarantee that your counter is going to stop his attack. in that case, it is safer to raise an arm to block. however, for me at least, head movement takes priority since it's a lot quicker than blocking or countering. it also has a tendency to create openings, which blocking doesn't.





    getting out of the way doesn't necessarily mean stepping back and not doing anything. as i said before, head movement has a tendency to create openings. i think it's a better option than just standing there and countering, hoping that your punch hits its mark before his does.

    of course not, but again, moving out of the way takes just a twitch. all you need is a couple inches. countering is a different story, especially when you're unprepared.
     
  19. liokault

    liokault Banned Banned

    I find this thread quite disturbing.

    Fundamentally, what is being said is that if you are trained 'right' you can react to an attack from a guy who is standing within punching range.

    Fundamentally, if you are within punching range of an attacker, and you have no guard, and he strikes first, you will be hit 99% of the time.

    As for having no guard, yes, we cannot walk around 27/7 with our hands up, but if we feel threatened we can raise our hands to ward off (read about the fence by Geoff Thompson) or we can step out of range (before the attack has begun). If we do not feel a threat and the guy throws a punch (or stab) it will hit 99.99999% of the time.



    Trying to do what is shown in clips on this thread will get you killed.





    Random quotes.

     
  20. middleway

    middleway Valued Member

    ok i dont really have the time to answer all the responces ... i would mainly be covering ld ground. But i will give it a bit of a go.

    The situation in reality as i have found it is this. From a doorman perspective. as per Geoff thompsons methods. The Fence is a standard and effective way of gaining control of your space and i have used this many times. IT IS reliant on your ability to percieve a threat and face it and is fairly limited in the scope of mulitple opponents and knife attack. You put up a fence in multiple opponent situations and the rest of you more exposed than if you were stood upright! But as i say it is VERY effective .. especially for bouncers where they face frontal violent situations daily.

    From a self defence perspective. Learning to work from the position of suprise random attack where you have no fence or guard prepared is as vital as training from a good threat recognition range.

    The escalation of a situation isnt always there to recognise a threat. Sometimes people have previous grudges with you and just come and stand by you at the bar then attack. no build up ... no warning. there are MANY sneeky methods out there ... the days of dueling a single opponent are long gone.

    Here you need to be able to react in that time frame. Its not about being fast but being more efficiant. Making your reaction a perfect reaction to what he gives you. This obviously takes alot of training. but then it becomes as simple as a flinch responce ... If you have trained correctly your hit or counter will shock his system ... at least enough for you to follow with violent finishing motions.

    I think this is true ... and the very reason for training to defend against it. I wouldnt just accept that in that situation i am facing a hopeless odds. Sure, train in the majority of the time to defend obvious threats, control the pre-fight, use high percentage methods, train to recognise threats etc etc .... BUT also train to defend when your personal space is CLOSE.

    In a club or pub someone can be stood right on your shoulder with intent to take your head off and you wouldnt think anything a miss because our personal space range is conditioned to accept that proximity. If we were in a feild and there were just two of you the personal space may be 20 feet or so.

    The point is that there are numerous situations in every day life where an attack can come from someone within 'punching range'.

    I completely agree and this is the exact reason why you just have to REACT to the attack and not pre-arrange your responce.

    Note that i have stated that movement, checking, blocking, guarding ARE all fundamental things that i practice ... but i do react as the situation dictates ... in this video i didnt put a guard up .... in the other i did.... the reaction was different .. the attack nearly the same in its direction. as i have said nothing is pre-arranged.

    Its an interesting and friendly discussion. You seem to be working from the perspective of what works in Sparring, I from working in violent situations for many years.

    Thanks for taking the time to comment.

    regards
    Chris
     

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