So you wants to study Silat?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Orang Jawa, May 6, 2006.

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  1. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    Well for the seasoned silat lothario, nothing beats a harimau shoot, while your partner in waiting in Kura-Kura! :eek:
  2. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    This really makes me laugh ... but it would be a short encounter would it not? :D :D :D
  3. Narrue

    Narrue Valued Member

    Filth, pure filth wali wash your mouth out with soap and water! :D
  4. Wali

    Wali Valued Member

    I was dragged into this conversation by Kiai! Blame it on him! :rolleyes:
  5. Mushtaq Ali

    Mushtaq Ali New Member

    Yes Bobbe, it was my cow, and the resulting hullabaloo frightened it so much that the poor thing never gave milk again (there was nothing for it but to get out the peanut sauce and lime juice).

    This incredibly silly discussion has been going on since the early 1980's (the last century as it were) and not much of value has ever come from it. One of the very few positive things about being old is that it does give you a somewhat different perspective on things, but more on that later.

    Salamat Pak Tristan, yes, it has been a very long time since we last corresponded, but I trust you are well. Let me offer you my congratulations on your impending marriage, may you find every happiness.

    For myself, I am doing quite well. I am making and selling knives out of my little backwoods forge, working out with my students, hanging out with my friends, making the occasional post to my blog , and blissfully ignoring Silat politics :D

    I have to admit that I read this forum infrequently, and was somewhat surprised to see that this discussion is still going on after all these years. Then again I suppose that it is human nature at work.

    Being as I have a somewhat unique perspective on this situation I am going to presume to offer a few comments, even though I am coming into this a bit late.

    I know all the major players in this conflict, have heard all the various sides of the discussion and unlike almost everyone else outside Bill Sanders aliran, I have first person experience evaluating his art and his students.

    Having actually spent significant time with a good cross section of Bill's students, having observed them closely over that time, and having actually played with some of them, the truth is that Bill has produced some very good Silat players. That means that that they can both fight AND dance (while there are a good number of groups that can do one or the other, aliran in the US that can do both are a bit less common). If someone forms an opinion on Bill's Silat without first person experience then I for one do not value that opinion. After all, everyone here should know that good Silat is more a matter of feel, flow, and sensitivity than anything else. (how many times have I heard "you can't learn Silat from a video"?)

    As to whether or not what he does is Cimande, if one says it is not, then I suppose we should also condemn groups like Cimande DOMAS out of Sumatra, who frankly look more to me like they are practicing TKD than Silat. But interestingly they are quite well accepted as far as I can tell. We would also need to condemn Willem TeThouars, since the Cimande he got from his father-in-law look not at all like the village style.

    If we question Bill's credentials, then we need to also question the credentials of Willy Wetzel and Eddy Jaferi to name a few.

    If we criticize him for using the rank of "pendekar" shouldn't we also criticize the Perisi Diri aliran since as I remember they use the title as one of their ranks, or Bapak Paul DeThouars, or Wali Sango Silat since I have seen their leader given the same title. or IPSI and PERSILAT for that matter?

    It has been my experience that when someone is so very selective in their criticism as with one of the posters here, one often finds a hidden Agenda, but of course that is just speculation on my part.

    As to the matter of the existence of Sera, or if what Guru Stevan Plinck teaches is Sera, the answer is simple as well. Get on the mat with him or one of his senior students and see if their Silat is any good. Once you have determined that, then the linage question becomes just a little irrelevant. Just to be clear on this, I do not think anyone reading this would get on the mat with Guru Plinck and get off again without a real respect for his art. This being the case, the "real" history of how Sera came to the DeThouars family is really meaningless. (though obviously amusing to some).

    I know that the behavior of some members of that particular family have been less than sterling, but I have never heard anyone who actually knows Guru Plinck question his honesty, morals or skill. Anyone who does not know him first hand has no useful opinion as far as I am concerned.

    In my opinion, if someone has the time to spend criticizing other people's silat, especially if they have never met the persons in question, or tested their art for themselves, then they have too much time on their hands and could put it to better use by increasing their own training.

    Steve Perry has suggested that when you get martial artists together fights will break out. I have to differ with this just a bit. It has been my experience that this is the case only if the martial artists in question are emotionally immature. Adult human beings find ways to discuss things without having to interject ego insecurities into the situation.

    Everyone who knows me knows that I count Bill Sanders as a friend. Every now and again I point out to him that when he ignores his detractors and focuses on his school, his art flourishes, and living well is after all the best revenge.

    I am a firm believer that if we were all to put our energy into perfecting our own arts that the rest of this mess would sort itself out with no effort at all.

    So for what it is worth, that is my opinion on this sad matter, I still wonder at the usefulness of saying even this much but the discussion involves friends like Bobbe and Steve as well as Pendekar Bill and Guru Plinck, along with people I have a lot of respect for like Pak Tristan, so I make the effort.

    And now back to lurking (and practicing my own poor Silat)

  6. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    With that, this thread is closed.

    As the main players seem to have silenced the issue, I believe it is time for it to pass on, and not reappear at any point on MAP again.

    Thats the Carrot ^^

    IF anyone raises this again in another thread I will take action to have that person banned on a PERMANENT basis. So let sleeping dogs stay sleeping, dont pull their tails, dont poke their eyes, and certainly dont try to hit them with a stick ...

    Peace with you all

    Sarge (Tony)
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