So you wants to study Silat?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Orang Jawa, May 6, 2006.

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  1. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    LOL, GS, you are ****ing me off now. Here I'm eating Mc Donald Chicken tender and you are having beef rendang :bang:
    Any left over, will you kindly overnight it to Pennsylvania :)
    Selamat makan,
  2. realitychecker

    realitychecker New Member

    ** Please Read **

    Bill, will you please forward this to John, so he can
    >put it on the MAP forum. Thanks, Jerry
    >Bram, Tristan and Steve,
    >I have spent a great deal of time the last few days
    >contemplating what my response should be to the
    >ridiculous and ignorant statements made about my
    >teacher Pendekar William Sanders and our system of
    >Pencak Silat Pukulan Cimande Pusaka. That's right
    >Steve, I said ignorant. If you have never met William
    >Sanders or trained in our style of Cimande then you
    >are ignorant of PCP, and you have no grounds to speak
    >of its validity as a fighting art. Tristan, if you
    >have trained in "traditional Cimande" and you adhere
    >to the Orang Jawa ways, and you are such a humble
    >pesilat, then why is your entire website about selling
    >instructional videos? William Sanders website has
    >information on Cimande history, lineage, jurus, dance,
    >music, etc. If his sole purpose is to make money off
    >cimande, then why isn't his entire website just about
    >selling books and videos? Hmm. You say that Pukulan
    >Cimande Pusaka is not traditional Cimande. That is
    >correct. That's why it's not just called "Cimande".
    >Our system is a combination of Cimande, Cikalong, Sera
    >and Ular. The art taught by Willy Wetzel and John
    >Malter was called "Pukulan Cimande". After 12 years of
    >training in this system, William Sanders started to
    >look for other Cimande teachers both here in the U.S.
    >and in Indonesia. After several more years of training
    >he was tested in Pendekar Banten and awarded the title
    >of Pendekar. That's it! If you gentleman don't believe
    >it, or are jealous, then so be it, but that's just the
    >way it is. I have videos of Pendekar Mama Sukarma and
    >his students practicing the Cimande Jurus Tangan,
    >Jurus Pepedangan Cimande, Jurus Tepak Selancar, etc.
    >Many of our students have been to West Java and put on
    >demos, sparred and trained with Cimande players from,
    >Bogor, Bandung, Cianjur, etc. All of them were
    >speachless at how good our students movement was and
    >could not do any thing aginst it. So if it's not
    >traditional Cimande then so be it, but I'll stick with
    >it! My offer still stands, if any of you would like to
    >experience it in person, you are invited to the
    >Pendekar Sanders Seminar in Port Huron, Michigan on
    >September 9 & 10 or the Seminar in Traverse City,
    >Michigan with myself and Stevan Plinck on October 14 &
    >15. Bram, Tristan and Steve are all invited as my
    >guests. You will not have to pay any seminar fees, and
    >I will even pay for your hotel. That's it! This is
    >your chance to see this art and meet Pendekar Sanders
    >in person and gain first hand knowledge of what our
    >system is all about. I hope you can make it.
    >Jerry Jacobs
  3. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Tristan, if you
    >have trained in "traditional Cimande" and you adhere
    >to the Orang Jawa ways, and you are such a humble
    >pesilat, then why is your entire website about selling
    >instructional videos?

    Salam Guru Jerry or now is Guru Besar Jerry. I think you should read the caution on my video, it is not intended for intruction. I have never claimed the video is Cimande techniques. I have never claimed that I teach Cimande. The video was the result of a seminar I gave at Bob Orlando School, he took the video, we never plan to make is as a video. My student insisted that could be helpfull to others, at the end I agree. He did everthing, he is the one deserve the credit for the video, I'm only annoying person in the video. FYI, I don't have nothing to do with the website. My student is. Coincedently, I told him last night not to renew the contract, therefore, we are closing the website as of today. imagine that? ;)
    I'm working on a Silat book, so lets see what happen :)

    After 12 years of training in this system, William Sanders started to
    look for other Cimande teachers both here in the U.S.
    and in Indonesia.

    Could you elaborate more? How long that Pendekar Sanders studied in Indonesia? two weeks? a month? once a year or three times in the past ten years, three to four week at the times? In case you did not know Guru Jerry, the truth shall set you free. :bang:

    After several more years of training he was tested in Pendekar Banten and awarded the title of Pendekar. That's it!

    Please tell us, of how long that Pendekar Sanders studied Cimande with Sukarma? I meant dailty study, one to one with him? I do not recall that William Sanders stayed over ten years in Indonesia. Again in Cimande, ten years studied with one teacher will make you a beginer. I have been in Silat for 50 years and still a beginer. Your guru must a genious man, he got his pendekarship in three weeks training or may be a total a month? Correct me If I'm wrong. Since you are on this subject, what ever happen with Suryadi Jafri? He the one introduce William Sanders to Silat guru in Indonesia?

    Thank you for the invites but not thanks! ;)
    First of all, I will not give up my honeymoon to see your teacher.
    Lastly, I'm his senior in age and in silat for whatever its worth. I do not visited him first, the younger one is always visited the oldman. That's our tradition. However, I really like to meet him one to one, just him and I, I guarranty there will be no harm done, it is a friendly invites. My gathering will be at Scranton, Pennsylvania, on August 24th, 2006. I will be teaching from 10am-10pm. Tell him to call me. 570-985-8813. I wanted to be respectfull to him but his students always doing the attack dog. If a students reflection of his teacher. What can I say about him?
    Warm regards?
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2006
  4. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    To Mr Jacobs and Mr Sanders

    Salaams Mr Jacobs!

    I understand you are also a Guru Besar in Cimande? Well, your post does actually clear things up a little as does Mr Sanders' new welcome message on his website. I am happy that the obnoxious photo of a Sunda groom brandishing a Bali keris is not there anymore. Honestly it did not look nice at all, and did appear to be a challenge to anyone opening the site. I am happy that Mr Sanders has responded positively to the discussions on this thread.

    I am happy that you have a very efficient fighting art, better than what is in West Jawa. You do need to explain the name to Indonesians though because in Indonesian, Pukulan Cimande Pusaka appears to claim to be the original and most sacred Cimande - (the Pusaka). It would be also nice if you say where the keris forms come from? As far as I know in Jawa there are no keris used in silat and the kujang was first introduced to silat by Mande Muda.

    The difference of the choise of names in Mande Muda and PCP is obvious. The Mande Muda people respected the elders of Cimande and because they were going to spice it up for the USA they respectfully called themselves Muda, young. However PCP takes for itself a lofty name, Pusaka, when it is obviousely not a Pusaka - who ever heard about patricide in traditional silat unless it was in the Wetzel murder case in USA 1970s? How can a lineage that is tainted with patricide be a pusaka? However if it is pusaka to you then so be it.

    As for your invitation I cannot accept because travelling to the USA is too much hassle for me and I don't know if I could get a visa especially as your website says that the Mas Jut character was involved in Darul Islam (you spell it wrong, Dawruh) it means that your art has terrorist connections. Did you know that Darul Islam / Negara Islam Indonesia / Tentara Islam Indonesia (DI/TII/NII) are the ideological source of the recent JI (Jemaah Islamiyah) a terrorist organisation according to the USA and still a source of militants for Indonesia's domestic terror problems. Is it OK for you in the USA to be affiliated to a terrorist organisation? Does this come out in your new book? By the way, this organisation is still alive in Indonesia and the spokesman for NII, Al Chaidar, often writes in the main media. They want an Islamic state in Indonesia and the way the USA is behaving in Afghanistan and Irak and Lebanon surely is helping them alot.

    Guru Besar Jerry Jacobs, I would also like to invite you and yours to come any Sunday evening to the Stable Market in Camden. If Liam comes as well we will make history by having two Guru Besars in Cimande in one spot. In Indonesia it is well known that there are no Guru Besar in Cimande. So it would be really novel to meet you.

    Warm salaams to all,
  5. AnakMurid

    AnakMurid New Member

    anyone know who founded this:

    IT world seems inspied by Javanese Silat. You got the programming language JAVA, then its offshoot, KERIS, now this. Interested to know why this is so.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2006
  6. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Hi Kiai

    Thank you for your offer of attending your event. I take it now that you won't take me up on my offer to come along to my group in Dublin, even though you misinformed people on this website that you couldnt go because we would charge (which wasnt true) and now after offering you free flights, transport , food you still wont do it.
    You keep talking about things, that we westerners do that is rude, but is it not rude in the Indonesian culture to refused to accept the hospitality of a fellow silat player? Especially since we did visit you at your event last year, by sending Gavin to Represent us and he did help you help you out, when few other did, and then you turned on us because he couldnt make one night because of work.

    This offer of hospitality comes from all of us in Ireland including Gavin, we all do want to meet you. So why won't you come and explain to us?
    We have shown the respect in visiting you, or you not going to show the respect back!
    Looking forward to meeting you.

    Last edited: Aug 16, 2006
  7. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Let's see....

    Curry. Political sniping. Beer. Lineage wars.

    Tough choice. Curry and beer for me. Last night one of my teacher's students - Big Jason for those who know him - was stuck near Portland because the D.O.T. went over his trucking log and decided to give him an enforced 10 hour rest. We went for Thai food over on Alberta Street and then trained. The Siam Society makes a killer Panang Curry and a very good Massaman Chicken Curry. No beer that night. I had enough in Reno at the seminar to last me for a long time.
  8. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    Gonna be you 'n me alone on that one, Todd.
  9. Bobster

    Bobster Valued Member

    A Challenge...?

    I beg your pardon? Do you get to Bandung much?

    It wasn't because they were going to "Spice it up", it was because the Suwandas are Cimande by blood, something few (if any) people here can claim. Cimande was (and still is) the base style taught in Mande Muda, as well as Sundanese Silat. And there is nothing "Added" to our Cimande to spice it up, the Jurus are unchanged.

    Exactly where are you getting this information from? For that matter, who is your teacher?
  10. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Listen Carefully

    With all due respect, Guru Jacobs, would you show me where I spoke to the validity of PCP as a fighting art? Or offered disrespect to Pendekar Sanders ability as a fighter or teacher?

    I don't believe his version of history; I don't find his evidence enough to justify changing what I have learned. How does that make me ignorant?

    I allowed as how we disagreed on the history of my art, and that the evidence Pendekar Sanders has regarding this is not compelling. (I also allowed as how some of his early material on the keris is less well-informed than it is now, and that as far as I knew, traditional Tjimande did not offer keris forms as part of its instruction, given the nature of what the keris represents to Indonesians. This material is in books and vids from the PCP organization, and, having seen them, I use them as my basis for saying such.)

    Also, I offered a defense of Pendekar Sanders's ability to write a book about the keris.

    If you can point out where I erred in these comments, I'll be happy to tender an apology.

    This has been an ongoing problem with the PCP's relationship with the rest of the silat players in the U.S. -- the tendency to lump any and all critics in together as enemies. I had a long and quite involved discussion with Pendekar Sanders about all this -- ask him about it -- and in the end, we agreed to disagree. He sent me new videos so that I could see what he did, and I responded to those without any insult. I didn't do any of this as a representative of Guru Plinck or anybody else but on my own hook, because a mutual friend allowed as how Sanders wasn't such a bad guy and maybe I should check it out.

    That's the impression I came away with, and my public stance since. I didn't walk away with any particular bad feelings, nor did, I think, did Pendekar Sanders. He thinks he is right, I believe that I am. That's what makes a horse race.

    I haven't argued that what PCP is or does is invalid. I merely pointed out that my art's history looks different from where I sit than where Pendekar Sanders sits, and that nothing he has said thus far gives me reason to dump my version for his.

    That Sanders is going to publish a book that will -- he believes -- demonstrate that the senior teachers in my system are all essentially a bunch of liars does not, in my mind, seem to be an olive branch in the offing. Hence my comment on the matter: If you want peace, you have to stop shooting, that's necessary on both sides of the battle lines.

    If you want to pound on me for something I said, fine, but look to be sure that's what I said before you do. I didn't start out to be an enemy here, and if you want to make me one, that's on you. You probably don't need any more, but that's your choice.
  11. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member


    My teacher Pendekar Sanders asked me to post this letter in on his behalf in response to remarks made earlier by Kiai.

    I have no attack dogs that have some how prevented Tristen from being respectful to me as he said , if so who are they and where did they start the attack on this thread ????? As Usual this whole "attack" sequence started with the rude post by Kia that brought liam out asking why again with not a single bad word from us we were being insulted . But anyone who can read can just go back through the posts and. see that .

    Despite the rude behavior of Kia and others I will try and remain a professional and address your silly remarks as best I can . Of course I understand it really does not matter what we say . some will scrutinize my website .look closely at our attire , try to find one thing out of place to magnify their hate on and in the latest case twist words , omit words , in an unbelievably slanderous and now REALLY liable way .

    2. We have no Keris forms BUT we have the knowledge of how to fight with a Keris which some of my teachers had the knowledge of.

    3. I think it is not a good thing to be talking badly about Mande Muda and the late great Herman Suwanda and shows real rudeness, saying he just spiced up his art for the USA .Mande Muda was taught in Indonesia before it ever came here. Pendekar Suwanda, which of course you keep ignoring, produced a video on the Keris system where like me he showed Keris fighting techniques. he did not make these up and we discussed these Keris techniques when I met him around 1986 in CA at a demo he did with his Late father , so he was one teacher who shared the keris fighting with me and explained its ancient roots as did his Father . If you say it did not exist then you are also calling him a liar, as he and his Father told me it came from his teachers in Java just as the others who also showed me these very old and not often now seen ways of using the Keris . Pendekar Jafri also shared his Keris Techniques with me and was the first to show me Kujang Jurus and fighting applications, but he was not Mande Muda so once again you are saying Pendekar Suwanda made up the Kujung techniques which is a lie and another slam to Mande muda which does not deserve this word twisting. Pendekar Mama in Cimande village also has an entire set of Kujang fighting Jurus which are from Cimande, go and he will show them to you. Tell them they don’t exist, see how silly you are ????? Maybe you can discover his socks don’t match in color and you can point that out as a big deal, or some other tiny thing to sink those trouble making teeth into. I am sure you will find such relevant stuff. Now their was a question as to what Happened to Pendekar Jafri my dear friend and teacher , Tristen I will assume the best for you , that when you made the remark which sounded a bit like it was a slam , like Yeah where did HE wind up .Well Tristen ,My teacher and Friend is dead. Has been for some time due to a disease and I am sure you were not really speaking ill of him, right? By the way the rencong etc was taught to me by Pendekar Jafri and again as I have said a thousand times ( funny they cant seem to find that part on my web site )what we do is not traditional Cimande only , but Cimande with the added things my teachers contributed to . The word Pusaka is a family Heirloom, valuable and old and it was Pendekar Jafri's idea to add this to the end of my art and he explained it this way. He said when a man gets Keris made and passes it on to his generations it becomes their Pusaka. You have developed an art you are passing on from this point to your students and it will become then their Pusaka. In addition he realized I had spotted a certain type of movement in the various teachers he introduced me to that I really liked. He told me that was the way very old Silat moved before the introduction of sport etc , it was the old Pusaka way of movement he said ,so it all fit and I did not just wake up one day pound my fist on the Kitchen table and invent the name as it was with his blessing and suggestion. He was at the time the official representative to the USA from Indonesia on Silat . Later that position was taken by the late Pendekar Suwanda .I am giving you the facts here for those who really want to know and are not just looking for another word or tiny nit picky thing to launch a tirade at .

    NOW for the latest absurd remark about Mas Jud and a terro group, saying the most stupid thing that we have ties to it . First of all as usual words were taken out of context , the message on my website makes it clear that in the early 1960's Mas Jud some how got involved with this group and THEN REALIZING THEY WERE NOT GOOD PICKED UP HIS ENTIRE FAMILY AND FLED HIS LIFE AND HOME TO ESCAPE THEM AND ANYTHING INVOLVED WITH THEM !!!!!!!! Even now his family does not want to talk about them . They still fear they will be found since Mas Jud hated them so The dislike for that group is so large AGAIN MAS JUD FLED FOR HIS LIFE TO REMOVE HIMSELF AND HIS FAMILY FROM THEM FOREVER . Now of course to be be not a nice guy and to try and stir the pot KIA ever the trouble maker makes this remark.

    Remember who mas Jud was. He is connected to the Sera-Serak of the USA all of those students, the Wetzel line, the Reeders Line, The Terlinden line if you are trying to sell that phoney word twisting info then you are saying EVERYONE OF THOSE GROUPS HAS A TERRORIST CONNECTION SINCE THEY HAVE TIES TO MAS JUD which is of course completely absurd and I really think their is not a single sane minded person on this forum that would believe that. Mas Jud was a good man and highly respected, got accidentally involved maybe by teaching a member, found out and headed out of town. I have trained now in Pencak Silat since 1972. In this art we can make a VERY good silat player in five or six years. We have done it over and over again .

    My advice is if you have been studying for decades and really consider yourself not very good find another teacher or art. Yes I know, we are all still learning and that is VERY true . I also know in six years we have developed very good players who by the way HAVE entered MANY open tournaments . Tristen you must not have seen any of the Wetzel or Malter students fight in the 70's . We made it a point to fight in MANY open Karate tournaments and Bill Dobich had the at His Dragons Temple school in Youngstown Ohio a large rented stadium , an open tournament EVERY year, NO PADS , NO RING BOUNDRIES ALL STRIKES GOOD , GROUND FIGHTING ALLOWED. Every year the Karate guys came and got floored by the dance of the Monkey etc. If you even look at one of John Malters commercial tapes he has a clip of one Andy fighting an open Karate champion at an open tournament and you can watch and laugh as this guy puts his hands down in disgust at the moves Ady has, and then gets blasted all over the ring to the delight of the crowd. Master Wetzel had a very good asrt and also speaking ill of him is not respectful or appropriate and shows very bad and rude manners to the family members still alive and all of his students who loved him , in my opinion. I could tell some real funny stories about those tournaments, maybe another day . William Sanders
  12. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    Sgt Major

    Sgt Major
    Can you let the moderators or Administraters who run this forum, that over the last 72 hrs 5 new members have tried to join this forum and for some reason when they use their passwords they cant get on. So far they have had to asked people like myself and others to post their views through our names, which is very time consuming for me. Could you please let the powers who be, know this (I have tried sending you private posts but they not going through either). I said to these guys I let you know as they urgently want onto the forum to reply to remarks made by Kiai.


  13. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    I will certainly pass on the problem Liam, and I hope it can be sorted asap.
  14. Saz

    Saz Nerd Admin


    Sgt Major has passed on the message to me. You are free to contact any of the administration team yourself using the details located here

    At the moment, we have a problem with authorising new accounts. The accounts will be let through in due course when it is fixed. This may take some time as we have 240 accounts that need currently approval
  15. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    I have no attack dogs that have some how prevented Tristen from being respectful to me as he said , if so who are they and where did they start the attack on this thread ????? As Usual this whole "attack" sequence started with the rude post by Kia that brought liam out asking why again with not a single bad word from us we were being insulted . But anyone who can read can just go back through the posts and. see that .

    Salam William,
    Now I felt like fools, :) my appology for not knowing the Pendekar Jafri has passed. My thought and prayers to his family.

    I am a straightshooter, a big mouth by any means, I say it what I trully feel, no sugar cotting. I don't mean any harm to anyone. I can offer my opinon as I accept your opinon, is that fair? That's why I like to meet you face to face over a cup of coffee, if necessary we can jump started with Tia Maria on the side. We can easily becoming misunderstood in the internet, because our ability to express our opinion are differ.

    In Indonesia an old age have a priveleges, It is impolite to address or to ask deregatory question to the elders. Jerry I think is over board about it. May be he like me or hate me to the bone. :confused: I'm still consider your loyal student Dr. Chris Martin as a friend. We have a cross word, but we agree to disagree.

    As far as Karate tournament, in the late 70's, I went to Pittsburgh to compete at the Pennsylvania Martials Arts Championship sponsored by Shorin No Tora (John Hamilton) And come home with 4 first place and one 6' randchampion trophy. I think I was lucky then.....I have never compete in Ohio. Only in PA, DE, NJ, NY, and DC.

    The last time I have compete is in NH. House of Samurai is the sponsor of the New England Martial Arts Championship. This is a funny, I think. I was asked by the tournament director to be a center judge (shimbun) for Master and Grandmaster form division. Its only about 7 of this so called Ms or GMs. It look so bad, I gave them the lowest scores allowed 5, while the other judges gave them 8 and 9. I think they kind of scared with their red belts. :)

    Anyway, All the master was the judges at the blackbelt division. I like to compete in the blackbelt division because many younger blood there :). I did what I have to do, I performed a Gojushiho, a Shotokan Kata. Again it must be my lucky day, they gave me 9 and 10.

    Sorry to keep you waiting :) Again I have never saw any Silat player in the tournament, either in empty hand form, Weapon form, Self-defense and Kumite. If they do compete, then I have not seen them in the final.
    One thing that you are right, those day the protection ie.glove or pads is not required. So we are fighting on bare knuckle and bare feet. Yeap that exciting indeed. :)

    My first tournament was in Lehighton, PA. Garry Michack was the number one kata from in the nation..Beat him. His twin brother was rangking no. one point lightweight kumite beat him in less than a minute. Yeap my lucky day.

    So as far as Tournament I have been there and done that. I have the t-shirt to proof it. Well I have the 200 plus trophies to proof it too. Jinggo Boistering here again :)

    Again, I'm not the authority in Cimande, and I dont' know much about it. I'm not looking for students either. I do not promote Cimande or Claimed to be a guru in Cimande. My bad, once a while I enjoy to bring the hot issue, get debated, hot debate and makes everyone upsets then I go get some Ying Ling lager :)

    By the end of this month, I will tie the knots, that's enough stress all ready. I really don't need anyone to add to what I all ready had. So take a deep breath, stay back....and asked yourself "What you going to gain for being RIGHT?"
    My worthless comments,
  16. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Saudara Liam,
    You did good man! You said what you have in mind and move on..
    I don't think to gangbang Kia is a good way to debate the complicated issue. Your teacher have replied to him, don't you think and other of your teacher's students should keep quite? The Pendekar has speaks. I don't think he needed help from his students to attack Kia comments again, right?
    I do not know Kia, but I think he has an interesting question, lets debate it. One to one, there is no reason to be an attack dogs in the name of your PSP.
    Just my worthless toughts.
    No punts intended....Please don't bark! ;)
  17. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Mande Muda and Kujang

    Salaams Bobster,

    I lived in Bandung for two years in 1987-89. No one told me that Mande Muda used the kujang to 'spice it up'. As all my opinions, this was also my own. I appologize if I am wrong but in traditional literature the kujang is never mentioned as a weapon for fighting and I first saw it brandished in a Mande Muda photograph on a website.

    My thinking is, why they call it Mande Muda when it is obviousely real old school Cimande? There is only one reason that I can think of: respect to the Cimande legacy. As Muda (Young) they are allowed the space of youth and they claim youth, meaning that if anything they do might 'wrong' the traditional 'old' Cimande (like the promise to spread Islam) they are excused because they are 'young'. If they wanted, they would be the rightfull people to claim Cimande Pusaka but they didn't. In my opinion it is out of respect and I respect them muchly for that.

    Now, to the kujang, from the kujang lanang to the kujang wadon, from kujang wetan to kujang kulon... all the tosan aji experts in Indonesia say that the kujang is a tosan aji specificly used for the esoteric powers to enhance wet-rice agriculture. Ask Pak Haryono or check Pak Bambang Harsrinuksmo (alm) and they will say that. This is different from the Central and East Jawa tosan aji, many of which have esoteric powers concerning the political, not the life of the wet-rice farmer. Tosan aji people often mention the kujang when they point out that there has very rarely been a famine in Sunda land even though in Jawa people have green poo from only eating leaves.

    That is why, when I saw the Mande Muda photograph brandishing a kujang, I thought that it must be for the international audience. Forgive me if I am wrong, please show me another instance where the kujang is used traditionally.

    Bobster, you ask me who my teacher is. I have several teachers whom you would not know. First, my father, Suyono, then Rustamaji, then Sukadi, then Rendra and Pepen Sabur. No one with a big name...but Pepen's father was the late General Sabur of the Tjakrabhirawa... Mas Tristan would know who he was. I am at the outside of a real perguruan, though, as Rendra and Pepen are both of PGB Bangau Putih, a Chinese-Sunda school in Bogor, begun by (alm) Subur Rahardja. Now my Suhu is of course Gunawan Rahardja. However my relationship to him is only me asking: 'Can I join latihan?' and he saying 'Nggak ada yang nglarang!'

    Warm salaams to all,
  18. Pekir

    Pekir Valued Member


    Sounds a bit like the 21st virtual version of rounding up the gang to start bashing. :confused:

  19. Orang Jawa

    Orang Jawa The Padi Tribe-Guardian

    Salam all,
    I just got the phone with William Sanders..he is human after all :)
    I have to give him a credit, after a tough words I gave him on the list, still he have the courage and compassion to give me a call in the name of silat brotherhoood. I respected that and I welcome him in my space. :)

    He tried as best as he can to explain his situation and the history of PUSAKA. Bram and I as an Indonesian, took that name seriously, therefore, we have a lots of question to why he uses that name to name his Silat System. As my understanding now that the name PUSAKA is figuratively speaking, and not litterally means.
    I can buy that..its a free country, after all.
    All i can tell you that we have a nice chats.
    I think we all have to step back, and silent the gun...
    Warm regards,
  20. Kiai Carita

    Kiai Carita Banned Banned

    Darul Islam, Steve, Tristan and Sanders.

    Salam hormat Mr Sanders!

    I pity you for having to email Liam to post your answers to my 'trouble making'. I go to the internet cafe to post, if you have not enough money to go to an internet cafe please come to Camden and I will give you £1 to go and have an hour to prove your legitimacy. After that please show your skills on me I will sign a death warrant like Jet Lee in Hero.

    Sanders, big man, it seems that you do not know much about Darul Islam (DI/TII)... you could just ask Tristan (not Tristen) and he would tell you. When he was young they were the 'rulers' of West Jawa. DI has a long history and they did not start of being 'insurgents' or 'terrorists'. Kartosuwiryo, the leader, was an ex bodyguard to Soekarno wholly for Merdeka (tomorrow is 17 Agustus, guys). However they were dissapointed with the way the Indonesian Revolution was going and they decided to fight for sovreignity and failed. However by the time you say Mas Jut went to Banten (in the 1960s) DI/TII had ceased to be a problem, they had lost and gone underground. They have recently emerged in Indonesia with Al Chaidar as their spokesman and in the USA with you reminding everyone that Mas Jut fled from a DI stronghold to another DI stronghold in Banten.

    For your knowledge, DI's failure was mainly due to General Nasutions 'pagar betis' policy of using all the silat players in West Jawa to surround and capture the insurgents. Pagar betis means fence of calves (of the leg) and though it did stop the 'insurgency' most just went underground. To go from Sukabumi to Banten was not really hiding from DI/TII... as banten was also a stronghold of DI/TII. If mas Jut really wanted to get away from DI/TII he should have gone to Central Jawa.

    By the way, the title Mas is not Sundanese, it is Central Jawanese. Are you sure you got the name right here? I call Tristan, Mas Tristan ( I think it is more appropriate than Paklik or Om) because he is Orang Jawa. If he were Orang Sunda, of course I would call him Akang.

    However, Mr Sanders, it seems that I am not the only person who you have a problem with. Before I began to question the legitimacy of your claims many silat players had had a spat with you. You always have your guard-dogs bark but you never come out yourself. This is very un-Pendekar-like and because of this at this instance as an Indonesian who got his citizenship from the blood and sweat and tears of my parents and grandparents, I personally say that you are not a true pendekar and neither are you a jago.

    In my eyes to retain your honour you must answer Mas Tristan's questions: how long did you study with Sukarma and how long did you study in Cimande land? Also how dare you say that the patricide lineage of silat in the USA was Cimande? On the web I read about Tjimindie... an other made up name.

    To all Wetzel liners: let me tell you lilahi'ta'allah your line has no barakah, no karomah, get away from it. As an Indonesian and an inheritor of the intangible heritage (a UN term) of all Indonesian culture including Cimande I bear witness that Cimande and all other Indonesian silat never-ever-ever teaches patricide and yours is the one and only that does because it was not the real thing.

    May I say that since Suharto was a murderer I have in my adult years consistently stood up to injustice in my country never scared of red barrets or mysterious killers only fear Allah. Threats from Liam and your other dogs just make me laugh and my friends from Indonesia and Malaysia who come to my Sunday events for free really want to see you make real your threats/challenges. I am still waiting to see anyone more scarry than Suharto to whom I have said to in his power: Anjing lu: You Dog!

    For your honour, Mr Sanders, answer Mas Tristan's questions and the other questions like why the salaam in your certificate is not there were you all in a hurry? Why you mix up Untung Surapati with Cimande? Why you have Jumat Kliwon dates and pretend to understand the kalamangsa of the Jawanese? Do you know what kalamangsa means?

    Come clean Sanders! You have a good fighting system as your students say but you know nothing about Indonesian culture so don't pretend for pretension is not a Pendekar's way. Do you want me to nit-pick more on your website or do you want to be honest? I will continue to point out your arrogance even if your stooges on this forum stop me... the web is big Mr Sanders and open to all, even Indonesians. Please satand up as an individual and stop using your proxies.

    Warm salaams to all,

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