So you wants to study Silat?

Whilest in the USA, I spoke to many American silat students and many of them not even know or think that silat techniques or movements came from weapon system. IMHO, it we train silat without the understanding that any incoming attack is a sharp and pointee object with a speed and power, we cannot focus on our enemy, even though he is imaginary. We lose concept of distance, timing strategy, feeling and spirit.

Today silat students often wants a quick bit of training which will make him able to impress his friends. To a point, many martial skills have bent to accomodate this image.

Silat is always cloud with mystery, a black magic, and myths. But I was also
so surprised to hear some of the "new" Pendekar or Maha Guru or Guru claimed that they posses all of those things. I also surprised that many of them not explaining the purpose of the technical details based on mechanics and logic. Some of them mixmatch the mechanics, logic and the wicthcraft if I may say that

Remember it is not the fact that your teacher (if you have one) is wrong about certain aspect of technique, it is probably the fact that he learned from a different person at a different time, and human nature, after all is itself variable. Silat is not a dogmatic skill of producing robot or ; it is free for certain amount of human interpretation.

If you intend to study silat properly you must find a teacher. They are not easy to find them and you must look hard. Don't just watch one but find as many as you can and then choose the one you believe in and are prepare to follow. I say this because many of young students will go to a teacher and still be full of their own ideas. It is not until you give up your ideas and concepts that your will trully start to learn from the teacher. If you believe the teacher to be a true teacher then give up your own ideas and learn.

If the true teacher is a true teacher he may not accept you as a student unless you can give some proof of sincerity. Why should he waste dedicated training on someone who will reward him by leaving, just as they are arousing a glimmer of hope? It would also be a waste of time and money for the student to go through such rigorous training and then leave.

In the Western world money, they say, speaks. Most people think that if a man is good it is measured by how much they pay for his services. If the pay, then they expect the teacher to come across with the goods, without themselves having to work hard. Sadly this practiced is happening in Indonesia or Asia too.

Let us suppose you have been accepted by your teacher and he begins to teach you. You will probably expect it to be easy sailing....you must be joking! If you find you are not suffering, not being kept constantly on your toes, and not given sharp lessons in awareness then I would begin to wonder about your choice. In the Western world used the 'lets do something at the evening institute' attitude. They expec entertaiment and enjoyment. That sort of thing is fine, but martial skill is also dicipline. It is the frugal rigidity of the training that forges the individual, it is a different concept.
Just my worthless opinion'
Tristan

 

Study

Yep. I was involved with half a dozen martial arts over thirty years or so when I came to silat, and I've spent much of my time since trying to overcome my previous training ...

After ten years in silat, I still feel like a beginner. Every class, there is something new, and I come away feeling as if I have only scratched the surface and that I won't ever get to the depths ...

Brother Tristan's opinion is not even a tiny bit worthless about this.

 

Amen Brothers!

I hear the choir singing now...

 

newbie

Hello,

I think that Tristan and Steve have said something that has rung a bell in my own training. The MA world in the west is mostly business yet there are those that train and teach for other reasons cause of this. Sadly in my younger years I saw too much of this and has made me a bit cautious of people in the arts.

If i ever found a sincere teacher in the art of silat it would be something very worthwhile. Although were i am at all i find is TKD and karate.

John

 

Tristan,

Wise words Tristan and I more than fully agree. I'am a bit younger than you are but when I started my silat training in 1980 I was only allowed to attend the training by introduction of one of the older students. My teacher had no commercial goals, the money paid was just enough to pay for the rent of the gym. This hasn't changed since then, if the students contribution is not enough to pay for the gym I will put down the money. In that situation you might also say: I pay to teach them. I'm fine with that.

What changed since my early days is that silat and most MA exept karate weren't well known. Students that applied for membership were in general highly motivated for the right reasons. Since MA has become quite popular nowadays we get students that consider our training sessions more like a recreational friday night out. This type of student never last long and I can almost pick them out the minute they walk in. The first few months I observe them intensively and when I think it is worthwhile I'll start giving them extra attention. Of my 12 students today I expect maybe 2 or 3 to obtain a serious senior level anyways.

In regard to 'money talks', we only teach 'paying students' (I also have students who can't afford it and don't pay) what they have 'earned' because of their effort and progression. If they get slappy I will not hesitate to return the focus on previous parts of the curriculum and tell them why. If they don't like it, that's fine with me. I'll just pay some more money out of my own pocket.

I've never considered silat as a commercial commodity for exploitation and never will. If someone does, thats fine with me though I have some difficulty with still calling it asli or original. But like you often state: that might bemy worthless opinion

 

Funny thing - both of Steve's statements got accented and underlined yesterday in the Silat class we both attend. There's a new guy who has been at this for about six months. He's doing great largely because he came knowing absolutely nothing, not even how to make a fist. He didn't have any preconceptions or anything to unlearn.

After class we were standing around admiring the guru's new tatoo. Why did he get it? "To remind myself I know something. When I'm not doing it or teaching class I think 'I don't know anything at all!' " If it's still new to him after 43 years I don't feel so bad for knowing nothing after only 12.

 

Some thoughts....
I don't think having a conception of your own is wrong. The problem is: do you have the 'right' conception? the right motivation?
Nowadays many new students come with wrong reasons: the image of Bruce Lee or Jet Lee or other martial arts movie star who can take many enemies at once seems etched in their mind, so they want to be like them too. What's the result? The word bullies came to mind.
Many schools nowadays accept students regardless of what is their motives. As long as they pay on time, the school shall 'indulge' them: train them, after the requisite training hours is passed do some evaluation, then gave them their belt/rise their rank.
I think those of us who really loves the art, should be more careful in how we will pass on our craft. Not to sound elitist, but after all, this is a dangerous skill we are talking about.
I never agreed with the Indonesian term 'Seni Bela Diri', which implied Silat is a self-defense method. No, it is not. A trained pesilat is a very dangerous person, not much different with someone carrying a concealed weapon. The English term 'martial arts' has a truer meaning. Silat is developed as a combat tool, not as a self-defense tool.
So, to those who want to learn silat, welcome. Yet, beware, here be dragons.

 

Magick Sells Silat ?

Salam Hormat Mas Tristan,

Maybe for the materialist Western market the woowoo magick is a turn-on? Make it dollars? Look at the way these books are presented by the sellers: http://www.cimande.com/market/items_books.htm . Here you will find that there is a new meaning for ilmu - it has become magick of combat. The promo paragraph for the second book claims knowledge and ability to teach ilmu-kebatinan as traditional internal spiritual magickal aspect found in all authentic pencak silat. Wow nggak? Wow khan? Wow in'it?

Reading through this website you will find this 'Pendekar' claims to have deep knowledge on Jawa and throws in concepts of Juma't Kliwon and writes a definitive book on keris without even mastering Indonesian let alone Jawanese! How can one attempt to understand this?

Furthermore this 'Pendekar' has an ijazah (certificate) signed by the RT and RW (like the head of Neighbourhood Watch, who have nothing to do with silat) with the basic Muslim's salaam wrong, having ommited a whole word. Many people in the Indonesian silat community are rather upset with people making claims like this and thankfully the silat activists in Jakarta and Bogor area have now organised a Traditional silat Lovers forum where problems like these can be discussed.

Just a word of warning that not all that glitters is gold and not all those who wander are lost...

Warm salaams to all,
Bram

 

oh oh here we go again

 

That's a large part of what I don't like about the kyu/dan belt system. A useful tool for large organizations turned into an end in itself. It's back to that old story sometimes told about Kimura, sometimes about Mifune. "I've trained twenty years!" "That's nothing. I've trained for thirty years!" And the Master says "I trained yesterday."

Along with everything else Silat is it's a tool for combat. If it couldn't be used to defend the weak from the strong and the innocent from the evil, let alone protect your own life, then it really isn't worth anything. Self defense isn't all there is there. But I wouldn't have wasted my time on it if it weren't useful for that as well. In a dangerous world you have to be keep the students alive long enough for them to get to the good stuff. Until the basic needs are met the more advanced ones must wait. That's just how people work.

 

Salam Hormat Mas Tristan,
Maybe for the materialist Western market the woowoo magick is a turn-on? Make it dollars? Look at the way these books are presented by the sellers: http://www.cimande.com/market/items_books.htm . Here you will find that there is a new meaning for ilmu - it has become magick of combat. The promo paragraph for the second book claims knowledge and ability to teach ilmu-kebatinan as traditional internal spiritual magickal aspect found in all authentic pencak silat. Wow nggak? Wow khan? Wow in'it?

Salam Bram,
Amazing, right? We have long discussion not long ago on this topic at other silat lists. From Mansur's list to Todd's list.

Reading through this website you will find this 'Pendekar' claims to have deep knowledge on Jawa and throws in concepts of Juma't Kliwon and writes a definitive book on keris without even mastering Indonesian let alone Jawanese! How can one attempt to understand this?

LOL! Only in America! The sad thing many of his students tried to convince me that he was a legit. The only certified Cimande Pendekar in America.
To be fair, many Indonesian/Malaysian/Philiphino so called pendekars spreading this kind of garbage for money too :bang:

Furthermore this 'Pendekar' has an ijazah (certificate) signed by the RT and RW (like the head of Neighbourhood Watch, who have nothing to do with silat) with the basic Muslim's salaam wrong, having ommited a whole word. Many people in the Indonesian silat community are rather upset with people making claims like this and thankfully the silat activists in Jakarta and Bogor area have now organised a Traditional silat Lovers forum where problems like these can be discussed.

Next February, I'm planing to visit Jakarta, I hope I have time to visit you Mas Bram. The problem is, I only have two weeks, and I have a large family in Jakarta. So I will be busy being visited or visit them.
The funny thing is, many so called silat students coming to Indonesia, stay for two weeks, took some pictures, and have time to earn their pendekar certificate and got permission to spread the silat to the whole wide word. They have a certificate to proof it.
They must be the LUCKY ONE!

Just a word of warning that not all that glitters is gold and not all those who wander are lost...

Word of wisdom, indeed!
Warm regards,
Tristan

 

I wonder for how long :bang: but this must be magick/ilmu/kenatinan We all agree (thusfar)

Pekir

 

The disadvantage of most Silat schools that we don't have the equivalent of Menkyo Kaiden like Japanese Budo Schools (I might be wrong...).
So far, I've only personally see two occasions that a teacher of Pencak Silat declared that his student has learned all he needs to know and received his teacher's blessing to become a teacher. It also done verbally, with only his other students as witnesses. Nothing on paper, nothing advertised.

 

re

Hi Kiai / Bram

Here we go again. Every three to four weeks you bring up the same old spreel time and time again. You must spend your whole time just thinking about us in the Pukulan Cimande group along with Pendekar Sanders our teacher. This forum has been going well for a while now, and it really sad you cant seem to get us out of your system. When you were invited along to talk to Penekar Sanders directly about this, you refused to turn up. When you were invited to come along and train with us and have a chat you quoted "we werent worthy" and couldnt train in our presence??. Even though you repeatively asked us to preformed for your gig. This row you have with our group extends all the way back, to the gigs you were promoting in London, and even though at the time, very few people supported you, we did at the start, untill you lost the head when Gavin, couldnt make one night because of work.and now since then you been sniping at us.

The thing is I cant seem to understand is that (since going by you, we all lost and dont know cimande as we train under Pendekar Sanders), I just again been asked again by the Indonesian Community in Ireland, to represent their culture in a Internation World festival being held in Ireland which attract entries from over 80 countries and will be attended by 300,000 people over the two days. This follow last year doing a Silat demo for the Indonesian community and diplomats, they all came over and shake our hands one of them quoted " it was the most beautiful display of Silat he saw in 20 years. Some of the Indonesian themselves cried, because they remember their parents practising Cimande and hadnt seen it for years. I wrote this because I'm tired of always reading you run down our group. If you have a personal problem deal with it directly, stop using the forum for your own agenda.

On a final note I dont sell what I teach on the Magickal, I teach the physical. I dont judge people by their certificates, I judge people or teachers by the way they move, the way they teach and the manner in the way they conducts themselves with me. Other people may have different reactions to Pendekar Sanders. But to me and to many others he is a very kind, honest, thoughtfull teacher who I glad I have met and learnt from. I dont like people who wernt prepared to meet him, come on to a Internet forum and slate someone they didnt have the courage to meet.

If you dont like what he does, dont go near him, he wont run after you. If you want to train with him, he very helpful. At the end of the day do your own thing and stop worry about him. Its a free world and we all have choice.
Its really sad with Silat been such a small minority art (and doesnt seem to be getting any bigger) we are prepared to attack other teachers who are doing their bit to help Silat. Its a big world and they so few teachers out there. There are plenty of other Martial Arts systems who attack Silat and it cultures without us turning on our own. Plenty of other attractions, like the Pub, drink drugs that will attract the young of our society away from Silat without this silly bickering.

Liam

 

Salam Liam,
I'm a beginer in Silat, know next to nothing in Silat Cimande.
It would be my privelege and honor to have chance to meet your teacher Pendekar Sander. Could you tell when he would be around NY, NJ, and PA?
Warm regards,
Tristan

 

Hi Tristan
Thank you for your enquiry. It would be my privelege to pass your message onto my teacher and I'm very sure he would love to meet you, if the opportunity arises as, He doesnt teach the same number of seminars now as he used to, as he focusing on different areas and passions in his life, but I'm sure he would like to meet up.

Myself I'm in Dublin and try to teach (to best of my ability)in Ireland and UK so we long way apart. I'm just trying to do my bit to bring the beauty of Silat to people in this part of the World.

Every year we lose more great teachers from this World and its very sad to see people who have given their entire lives to promoting this beautiful art we all shared, having their work criticized. Every one of us is human and come with our abilites and failures, no one of these forum is perfect. So instead of looking for the wrong or trying to score points, we should looking at the good, and work together.

I dont know about other Silat teachers here, but I spend my whole time defending Silat from the riducle especially from the MMA society, who in my part of the world poke fun at Silat the whole time as a disfunctional art form and has no real place in combat. I do my best to stand up to these guys and then I come to a Silat forum to read and discuss silat, and I see Silat guys attacking other Silat guys (usually at the end of the day it a personal matter or agenda between these guys) and it really sadden me. It sometimes no wonder Silat has not gain the reputation it really rightly deserved

I been only training in silat for 21 years, but I never seen such a minority art form have so much politics, rows, personal agenda, religious and culture difficulties. When I meet people away from the forum and train with them, you can see we all love Silat.
So if there people that we dont like and dont respect, than stay away from them, they soon get the message. If there people you want to train with go and meet them and have fun. Lets keep this forum running smooth. and help it to promote Silat in our World.

 

Bickering

Brother Liam --

With all due respect, it takes two to tango, or, in this case, to bicker.

I had a long email discussion with Pendekar Sanders, midwifed by a mutual friend who has a great deal of respect for the man, and who wished to see peace between the various factions.

In that discussion, I found Sanders to be reasonable, save in one fairly narrow arena. Unfortunately, I believe this one area colors much of what he believes in such a way as to make agreement on about aspects of our respective arts impossible.

From what I was able to understand, Sanders was badly screwed over by a silat teacher decades ago; he has a right to be resentful of that. More, that teacher and his students spent a lot of time offering ridicule in public, and I can understand how that rankles, too. But if your response to being bitten by a dog is to run around shotgunning every dog you see, then various packs are not going to be happy to see you coming.

Sanders's justifiable ire at one teacher seems to have slopped over onto others, to the extent that he certainly appears trying very hard to disenfranchise my branch of the art, and you might understand how that doesn't sit too well.

We agreed to disagree, no hard feelings, and to move on -- if not peace, then at least an armistice.

Thing is, even for an armistice, both sides have to stop shooting. From where I sit, Pendekar Sanders hasn't laid his gun down yet, either. So for you to be upset about bickering is valid, but from where I sit, your side of the war can't claim to be completely righteous, either.

Steve

 

Hi Steve,

From what I have observed, the only shots your group has taken on MAP have come from those that your teacher may have been formerly affiliated with. Apologies if I did not describe them or the situation accurately.

I have found most of the threads on the Silat board to be informative regardless of who has posted them. There are now those who simply cannot contribute in a positive manner all the time. I do not recall it being this way back when you used to post here. It's too bad really. Cheers.

 

Reply to Kiai / Bram

I have been asked by my teacher Pendekar Sanders to post the following response he sent me, in answer to Kiai / Bram remarks. If you have any furthur questions Pendekar Sanders can be contacted by way of his website
www.cimande.com. Thank you

Liam

Lettle from Pendekar Sanders
In regards to the slanderous remarks once again made by the same people I will leave this brief reply. WOW their is an omitted word on my certificate !!!!! What proof we now all have that printers make errors and are not infallible gods of the printed material. Surely that proves the intent of the certificate is not valid , Surely that proves the real originator of the Certificate, the highly esteemed well know Pendekar Mama Sukarma's words on it have no meaning . Surely that proves it means nothing that along with him, the Chief of Cimande village and every single elder in Cimande village who signed it means nothing. Yes for sure we can see your wisdom. Yes my encyclopedia Britannica has been found to contain a printing error so now I will throw away all of the volumes Now that I have learned that means all of the facts are flawed!!! Now back to reality. It’s a simple thing for any one who doubts the authenticity of this to take their complaints to Pendekar Mama in Indonesia. He told me he has been waiting for anyone to show up and question him but so far no one has. He will show you up close and personal if that omitted word really means he did not issue that certificate, or if it really means that a simple printing error happened by a human printer, which word by the way has zero meaning in the actual wording of what was granted.

Being so petty of course illustrates a desperate person with another motif and other agenda altogether which has nothing to do with admitting it was really issued by a top ranking Master of Cimande and with the value of what is taught or how hard I have worked to bring a fantastic art to my students. Of course the other parts of the certificate are also not mentioned about building friendship and brotherhood of humanity without discrimination as to race , nationality , religion, sex, or creed as long as a belief in the almighty God is held. Yes the certificate also says that, but is that not more important to dwell on besides some so called omitted word? Would not those parts of the certificate not benefit us to follow? I would hope that would be read in the old silat magazine always spoken about also, even from those who say they don’t know much. THIS is what we should be concentrating on with each other. I have no delusions about converting those with their private agendas who simply act humble but wield the back stabbing knife in the other hand. I have no time for it. But my doors are open to all those who want to come and learn and see what we have to offer. I will admit that so far ALL of those who have really showed up were very happy with what they were taught. By the way one does not need to know Indonesian to learn about the Keris etc. Translation has made the world able to communicate with each other just fine for some time. My seminar schedule is always posted on my website and the doors are open. As always I HIGHLY recommend that anyone who wishes to compare what they do to what we do to attend a seminar from both arts , by a tape of both ways, examine them closely and ask yourself which way would I rather move and fight like and then make that choice and have fun . I am more interested in training and teaching and helping those who want to learn than to bully boy tactics and nit picking of unimportant items which is why we continue to grow world wide.

Pendekar Sanders

 

Hi Tristan
Thank you for your enquiry. It would be my privelege to pass your message onto my teacher and I'm very sure he would love to meet you, if the opportunity arises as, He doesnt teach the same number of seminars now as he used to, as he focusing on different areas and passions in his life, but I'm sure he would like to meet up.
***************
Hi Liam,
I think Pendekar Sander knew me. but he could forgot too, I'm insignifant and not a worthy silat player to be remember

>Myself I'm in Dublin and try to teach (to best of my ability)in Ireland and UK so we long way apart. I'm just trying to do my bit to bring the beauty of Silat to people in this part of the World.
*************
I was in Dublin last Summer, went to see the U-2 concert and got 4 days hangover As a matter of fact, I propose to my girlfriend at the Cathederal
Just an oldman trying to be romantic.
Tristan