long story short. a friend and myself were watching a demo on tv. the usual was going on, feats of strength, breaking, disarming yada yada. so when gun disarming techs were being showcased, he said 'what if the gun goes off?' That got me thinking. most gun techniques i've seen are done with toys, which don't go off, which i think takes away a crucial aspect in training for them. My question if someone does gun defense, how do they compensate for this? Personally i thought of chikdrens fire cracker guns which have a pinch of combustable powder in them, or a loaded childs BB gun, it'll make a sound when it goes off, and if the defender gets hit... he'll know he did it wrong. your thoughts?
In most cases I'd agree, but if he says "get on your knees" I'd take the risk. Aside from that yes, a gun defence scenario should include an audible (but safe) report. I've fired pistols on a couple of occasions. Without hearing protection you could get the same effect as a stun grenade, especially if you haven't used firearms much. The first time I fired a 7mm rifle I thought something had hit me in the face (it hadn't, it was just the sound). I was "stunned" for a couple of seconds. In a life-or-death scenario that would have meant death. In general though, Lilbunnyrabbit is absolutely right. If they want your wallet, car, or the Colonel's secret recipe - give it to them.
lol. thats a given. Believe me, i have been in a robbery situation at night involving a gun. handed him everything i had, got super lucky that a patrol car turned around the corner and saw us. guy fled on a his bike throwing my stuff on the ground thats exactly what went through my mind stevie. the sound of the gun going off and the direction of the bullet are huge factors that i don't see implemented in most demos. wonder if they are a part of gun defense training anywhere, like perhaps police training or something?
I don't know anything about police/army training, but I'm sure Hannibal and a few others could fill us in. And before everyone jumps on this thread: this is a question about training method. Please let's not have fifty posts on how dangerous/unrealistic gun disarms are. Let's just assume that 6footgeek is a secret agent and wants to know that he's prepared for - whatever. To safely simulate a bullet I'd use a NERF gun You only have to feel it to know if you were successful or not. But I do believe that any realistic scenario training should include a simulated discharge because it's likely to happen if you start wrestling with a firearm and it's shockingly loud.
A good choice might be some of those cheap paintball guns you can get, the ones using water pellets. You can then see afterwards where it would have hit - handy to know whether it would've been a crippling wound or just a glancing hit.
Haven't seen those, but definitely a good suggestion. And BTW: ALWAYS USE EYE PROTECTION IF ANY PROJECTILE IS BEING USED! Eyeballs are not as soft as you might think. They are in fact super-dense matter. The gravitational pull of an eyeball will attract any flying object within a three-foot radius.
My taeqwando teacher used to say, the best self defence is not to get into trouble. Don’t go into dark allies, don’t get drunk and wander about at night and don’t ask for trouble. If you are in a situation where someone is pointing a gun at you, what you are going to do next depends on so many things. If you are in a car, and someone points a gun at you from 15 meters away, take your chance and drive away. That is probably the best chance you’ve got. But if you are in a corridor and someone has blocked your exit and is pointing a gun at you from 2 meters away, that is completely different story. You need to keep a calm mind and try to be 100% present in that moment. You need this in order to assess the situation correctly. If you want to do any evading or disarming action, you need to be able to do it at the opportune moment. To be able to spot opportune moment you need to be able not to gap and to be able to spot the attacker’s gap. It is only during the attacker’s gap that you have any chance of disarming him. The most important training should be how to stay calm, how to spot the attacker’s gaps and read his intentions from his face and body, and how to distract him. You already have all the martial skills to disarm him if you can get close to him, while he is distracted or is gapping. And, do not actually try to disarm him. Make sure you are either controlling the hand that is holding the gun, have it already broken, or have the attacker on the floor and not moving. Do not try to subdue him. And don’t worry about the sound of the gun going off. That is the last thing you should worry about.
Blowback CO2 airsoft pistol with marking pellets. You get slide action, a removeable magazine, one-in-the-chamber and immediate feedback without the fragility of the cheap electric pistols or mechanical issues of the propane/greengas pistols. Goggles are a must. Evike.com has full mesh face masks and close fitting mesh goggles that work wonderfully, don't fog, and don't get in the way too much.
Nice. a lot of good methods given here. really liked ratty's too. and i guess the one way for someone to get over the shock of a firearm going off would be to actually fire one. or be exposed to a lot of firecracker pranks as the next best thing. there seem to be quite a few people with the same idea as me and have implemented them too. but i never see them advertised, even in todays world of 'ALive self defence training' most of what we see are red or blue plastic guns and stuff right out of a movie.
As much as we like (and have considered) the idea of using an idea like Ratty's, the liability factor is just too high. As it stands we just have someone slam kicking paddles together while we work gun defenses and it certainly is loud and it certainly sounds similar to a gunshot, albeit not an immediately close one, but it's the best we can do under the circumstances.
It's not a bad compromise. I take it you consider the "bang factor" significant enough to make it part of the drill? I disagree. If you aren't prepared for it the sound of a gunshot will make you flinch, freeze, or jump. Any one of which will ruin the technique you've practiced. Bear in mind that if you're actually facing a firearm you're most likely "jumpy" anyway.
Fair point. But so will any other loud and unexpected sounds. So you can use kiai to simulate the effect. As for being jumpy, this is why you need to practice emptying and calming your mind as part of your martial practice. This is practiced so you don't get jumpy in situations when others do. This is also practiced so that you can notice and use opponent’s jumpiness to your advantage. Because trust me they will be jumpy too even if they have a gun in their hand.
Honestly I see a lot of focus in martial arts on getting the weapon away after the attacker has drawn it. I see far less focus on watching their hands and controlling the weapon hand as they reach to draw. Also I see a lot less focus on fast reaction. When your register that there is a weapon. When I was training jujitsu sometimes a student or the teacher would pull a rubber knife in the middle of sparring/rolling/talking without warning. It gives you a better awareness and reaction speed because of that. Someone tried to rob me with mace once. I was doing some shady business at the time and probably deserved it. I wasn't exactly armed to the teeth but I did carry a maple cane about 1.5" in diameter when I made my "deliveries". He walked up and held up the mace can. I think he was intending to say "give me the drugs and the money" but "giv.." was all that he got out because as soon as I registered what the can was I brushed it aside and laid into his face with the stick and got out of there. Mind you I was always on the lookout for trouble. A little justified paranoia. Reaction before they know what's happening and controlling the weapon before it's drawn are the best defenses if you can employ them. I also want to add to this:
I had a friend that was in a high level personal protection job. They practiced pistol disarms exactly as Ratty said, using CO2 pistols and markers. The hardest part of it (he told me) was not necessarily avoiding getting shot yourself, but making sure that the errant shot wasn't going to hit innocent bystanders.
By the way, if you do go this route, wear sturdy clothes and watch your FPS. 200+ fps can put pellets under your skin and some of the higher end pellets can fragment when they hit mesh goggles. I don't use them but the marking pellets have a colored silicone lubricant and that might make it more likely to penetrate loose weave clothing. Cheap surplus military jackets and pants are a good choice. Not much you can do to protect your fingernails without mucking up your grip, but a mouthpiece or full-face-mesh is advisable. People have lost teeth and gotten pellets in their face at much greater distances. And a cup isn't a bad idea either. 90% of the time the pants will stretch right so it never makes contact, but when it does it's horrible.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLjNJI54GMM"]Archie Bunker on Guns, Stick Ups and Skyjackings.[/ame]
When I was studying firearm retention and disarming drills, we used rubber Glocks most frequently. This was because many of the disarms involved breaking the trigger finger while it was trapped inside the trigger guard. Obviously, this is not something you could practice forcefully on a sturdy model of training handgun. We also used some sort of hard plastic toy pistol with a working slide, hammer, trigger, etc. This was so that we could practice redirecting the muzzle before our partner was able to pull the trigger, which would audibly click. Also, we used the "working models" to help us train to grab the chassis and slide in one hand while performing the disarm, knowing that such a maneuver would allow the attacker a single shot from the pistol, and that trapping the slide would prevent another round from chambering. We also witnessed a controlled demonstration of this stopping of the slide on the firing range, by professionals, using extra safety equipment (there was no disarm on the demonstration, just someone crouching under the line of fire holding the slide and chassis with a welder's glove).
I'm glad you mentioned the finger trapped inside the trigger guard. That is basically why training we do is usually with rubber guns that do not have a trigger guard or with finger outside trigger guard. When training with working models with finger on trigger, there was a very good chance of the weapon discharging. I was told one particular disarm that points the barrel to the ground had a near 100% change that the gun would fire. I was warned to make sure the barrel never pointed at anything I didn't want shot, like don't point it at my foot.
