So many other styles in Taijitsu

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Sonshu, Dec 2, 2003.

  1. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Throws - Judo
    Breakfalls - Judo/jujitsu
    Locking - Jujitsu
    Striking - Jujitsu
    Footwork - Aikido ish!
    Katana - Kenjitsu/Kendo
    Groundwork - Jujitsu/Judo
    Kicking - Karate

    It seems to have many points of other japanese arts in it and makes this art at a reasonable level - you can look reasonable in other arts of Japanese origin.

    I found by my Taijitsu training I am ok in Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido, Kendo, Karate really most Japanese arts!

    This is a blessing having such a multi faceted training art in one style!
     
  2. Geordie Boy

    Geordie Boy New Member

    But is it a case of Jack of all trades master of none?
    Or is it a very good system?
     
  3. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    I would say a drawback to it

    AND A BONUS

    It the number of weapons covered, as the more time spent on less practical weapons the less time spend on very practical hand 2 hand.

    Still it is important to cover the basic weapons, han-bo, jo staff, Knives improvised weapons, clubs etc.

    It is a system that does cover all these styles and because of the scope of it they cover them well. Not a master of any but an expert in all I would say.
     
  4. Geordie Boy

    Geordie Boy New Member

    Good, im hoping to begin training in it very shortly. Looking forward to it
     
  5. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    There are some parts that are slightly impractical

    But the majority of it is very good and offers solid self defence. They key to finding this out is often common sence and pressure testing.

    Let me know how it goes.
     
  6. heretic888

    heretic888 Valued Member

    *shudders* Set aside the blatant mispelling of the arts, none of those arts (with the possible exception of jujutsu and kenjutsu) are contained within Ninpo training today.

    *chuckles* That's funny --- considering every one of those arts use very different principles and methods from what is taught in Ninpo. :rolleyes:

    Depends on the individual, really.

    I'd say, however, that the system doesn't follow the "budo is pie" formula you are proposing there. Namely, if budo is "pie", then if you take a slice for kenjutsu, then that's a smaller slice for bojutsu and so on. Meaning, you have to "partition" what areas you will be skilled in.

    It actually doesn't work like that. What you are learning in Ninpo is to refine your taijutsu. Period. The weapons training suplements this. Good taijutsu forms the basis for all other aspects of Ninpo, from the weapons to the more "esoteric" studies.
     
  7. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Interesting

    What style have is not spelt right???, and its not really that big a point if I have.

    NO Possible exception - Jujitsu is where most of the japanese arts take there root from. Kenjitsu also. Judo is from Jujitsu so I am not sure where you are coming from here cos Aikido came from this root and still has many moves from it that are the same. It also uses many of the key movements and techniques that come from taijitsu and in turn Jujitsu before that.

    Your being a bit odd here as a hip throw is a hip throw, a wrist lock is a wrist lock, how you get there is not much different and in these arts they are the same. I have done Aikido/Jujistu and other japanese arts and to me they are all encompased in one form or another inside taijitsu - some more than others but you must be doing somthing different to what I did as my Ogoshi is the same in Judo/Jujitsu/Sombo and any other art that has this move in it.

    People make too much of a difference to somthing that is pretty much the same. Many arts overlap a huge amount and this becomes more apparent the more cross training you do.
     
  8. heretic888

    heretic888 Valued Member

    *sighs again*

    Jujutsu and Kenjutsu.

    It is if you want sincere practitioners of the arts in question to take you seriously.

    *chuckles* Jujutsu and kenjutsu (correct spellings) do not refer to specific traditions. They are generic terms for unarmed combat and sword skills, and are used in *many* old koryu.

    In any event, none of the Ninpo traditions draw upon a prior jujutsu or kenjutsu ryuha as a basis for their teachings.

    Neither Judo nor Aikido come from Ninpo, and vice versa. That was what you claimed before, and it is a false assertion.

    "Taijutsu" does not come from "jujutsu". In fact, "taijutsu" is a much older concept used to apply to the unarmed combat methods of various ryuha.

    Of course, both are generic concepts shared by numerous ryuha, so its pretty much impossible to say one came from another without citing specific ryuha or traditions.

    ROFLMAO!!! :D :D :D

    Oh lord, that's funny.

    *rolls eyes* Oh lord.

    Just because Ninpo shares a few concepts or techniques in common with some of these other arts does not mean those arts are "encompassed" within Ninpo. Any experienced practitioner of ANY of these arts would laugh at you for making such a claim.

    In my experience, Ninpo has a *very* different way of doing things compared to other forms of budo, Aikido included. Just because the kata of one of the ryuha has mechanical similarities with the kata in another art doesn't mean they are at all related or subsumed within one another. Because, after all, its the taijutsu thats important --- not the forms.

    Trust me. Cross-training while studying Ninpo is a *bad* idea. :rolleyes:

    *chuckles* Laterz.
     
  9. Freeform

    Freeform Fully operational War-Pig Supporter

    Tai jitsu thread

    Sonshu, I'm sure you'll approve. Although I'm probably going to cop a load of crap from 'traditionalists'. ;)

    Col
     
  10. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Freeform

    100% with ya buddy. The stuff you have put to me is what my Taijitsu was as well.

    Nicely put but the problem with tradionalists is they can stifle natural growth and development.

    Let em moan!

    Nice stuff and agree with you.
     
  11. xplasma

    xplasma Banned Banned

    Tai-jutsu is a collect of Different unarmed combat however, they pre-date alot of the styles you mentioned above.

    Throws,Joint Locking, Circular Movement -> Ju-jutsu
    Power Strikes, Stationary Movement-> Daken-jutsu
    Organ/muscle ripping, Horizontal Movement-> Koshi-jutsu
    Precise point attacks, Bone breaking, Angular Movement -> Koppo-jutsu
    Evasion-> Sabaki-jutsu
    Positioning-> Kamae-jutsu
     
  12. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Hectic888

    1st) Spelling is not a major thing for me as I did not do great in english and type pretty fast.

    2nd) The spelling of Jujitsu is actually how many styles of it is spelt included the STYLES THREAD on this site. So well ignore this one as well - also do a search on my spelling on MSN and you will see a lot of Jujitsu's.

    3rd)
    Who said about traditions there arts. They are not very generic they are specific also.

    Not sure where your going here either as all my teachings have pointed to this root as these were the older forms so naturally they will be used in the creation and development to what we call Ninjitsu today - more has been added to it agreed but I think the basis for it came from Jujitsu however you spell it.

    Being a bit too picky here as we all know this!
     
  13. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    2nd lot

    Sorry it does as how come when I go to train with Judo players I can a massive amount of the same techniques as they do. The work is very much the same. What magic do you know that I dont then?
     
  14. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    XPLASMA

    Yes it does Judo and Aikido that are new arts but taken from Jujitsu.

    To my humble knowledge it does not predate this style though and takes a lot from it as do many arts.

    The point with Judo and Aikido was there for a cross over point and to say a good thing with Taijitsu is it does bolt on well with these arts.

    As Freeform and I have found out.
     
  15. xplasma

    xplasma Banned Banned

    my bad, mis read but you wrote, yeah I have notice that my Jujutsu and Aikido training overlap with Taijutsu. I always though it was kinda cool. I was just giving the list of the actual arts of Taijutsu.

    Aikido overlaps with the Jujutsu arts and like you said before Karate kicks do overlap with the Daken-justu part of the Art. And Kenjustsu overlaps with Batto-jutsu/Itto-jutsu
    Remember alot of Japanese arts dervive and steal from each other. And Ninpo with Jujutsu being among the first japanese arts, its no surpise to see a overlaps.
     
  16. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Glad we all agree on that

    No probs mate!

    Its true my point was by doing good Taijitsu you can become to a reasonable level in Aikido and Jujitsu and Judo or Sombo as this art can cover so much.

    I do not do Taijitsu anymore but a large portion of my training is based on it as it taught me many key things that I keep and use today.
     
  17. heretic888

    heretic888 Valued Member

    hee

    An interesting claim, considering the "natural growth' method is about as 'traditional' as it comes.

    I think what you are actually talking about is the difference between kuden arts and koryu arts. Not between 'traditionalism' and 'modernism'.

    No. Taijutsu is just 'skill with the body'. It is a generic term many old ryuha used to refer to unarmed combat. Asayama Ichiden ryu, for example, refers to its unarmed methods as taijutsu. As does some schools of Aikido. Its not exclusive to Ninpo by any means.

    The same can be said for jujutsu, as well.

    That's a somewhat inaccurate conceptualization. If you are talking about Takamatsu-den Taijutsu specifically, it would be better to simply list off the characteristics of the different ryuha than that schema above.

    *chuckles* Those aren't real words. :rolleyes:

    That has absolutely no bearing on what I said beforehand.

    Popularity does not confer legitimacy.

    I explained to you, very specifically, the differences between the two kanji. I'm sorry you're having such a problem with this. Maybe you should try studying Japanese to clear up your misconceptions??

    As for the 'jitsu' mess-up, that mistransliteration has its origins in many Americans that trained in Japan just after World War II and came back to the States with an incomplete knowledge of the tradition and culture. It also stems from the Gracies when they intentionally mispelled their art 'jiujitsu' to differentiate it from traditional Japanese jujutsu.

    NO, they're *not*. There are literally *hundreds* of kenjutsu and jujutsu ryuha throughout Japanese history, and they differ as much as the various schools of kung-fu. If you don't believe me, examine the kenjutsu of Togakure ryu, Kukishin ryu, and Tenshin Katori Shinto ryu and see how many "similarities" you see.

    Please research the matter before making half-baked claims.

    *chuckles* Sources, please.

    Unless you can name to me a specific jujutsu ryuha that any of the Takamatsu-den supposedly draws upon, then I must politely ask you to retract your misinformed statement.

    No, you apparently don't. You say 'taijutsu' as if it only refers to a single style or ryuha, when it was in fact a term used by many ryuha --- several of which had little stylistic similarities.

    Specifics, please.

    You tell me the names of the supposed "shared" kata of the two arts and how they are mechanically similar and then we'll talk.

    On a side note, your claims are truly quite interesting --- considering Takamatsu To****sugu was "horrified" to see the judo-ka he observed with using techniques in which they bent their backs. They obviously don't have as much in common as you think.

    Many martial arts have "crossover points". I can't even begin to list the number of martial arts that use knife-hands and hip throws.

    That doesn't mean any of these arts are "contained" or "encompassed" within another, and evinces a decided ignorance of what these arts consist of in their totality.

    Laterz. :rolleyes:
     
  18. xplasma

    xplasma Banned Banned

    heretic888,

    Those arts and description came straight out of the Genbukan Ninpo Bugei Manual for Taijustu.

    Kamae-jutsu is also referrend to as Kamae Kata and Sabaki-jutsu is sometimes written as Sabaki Gata Taihen Jutsu.
     
  19. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    Here we go.

    Not gonna go far on this one - but in MAP (this site) we talk about traditionalists and more modern aproaches to the arts - its a map thing and please bear this in mind in the future as you are new to the site. We are saying the same thing here.

    I am with the guy that put the list as it made sence to me without writing a 1000 word essay on it so carry on XPLASMA, I know what you mean.


    The spelling thing - it does have a bearing as you were going on about it. To me I don't really care as either is a current in use way of spelling the art we are talking about.


    Again something we are all aware of, please do give us some credit.

    No I say it refering to in different ways depending on what I type -At times its for the natural body movements common to many arts and at time Taijitsu as thats what its called as in Bujinkan Taijitsu. Nothing more.

    Well I am the specific in this case - I go to do Judo and do the same as I do in my Bujinkan Taijitsu - its pretty obvious and many people here are agreeing with me so unless we are all missing something, a hip throw is a hip throw!

    Never said in their totality I said a good taijitsu person can be ok and have a good grounding in these other arts because the bolt on. Thats all and I never said they were exaclty the same, also people on here who do Taijitsu agree. Do you do the SKH Quest Ninjitsu?
     
  20. Sonshu

    Sonshu Buzz me on facebook

    XPLASMA

    He is just being picky mate, let it go.
     

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