slow kicks for high kicks?

Discussion in 'Health and Fitness' started by fabrizio, Feb 12, 2011.

  1. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    It's only irrelevant if you're not able to grasp the bigger picture and the connection between doing things slowly and in a broken down manner.

    No one learns how to drive a Ferrari F-1 car at qualifying speed on their first day behind the wheel.... why should kicking for speed and power be any different?
     
  2. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    You have it exactly right. But for anyone to understand that they would have to have a deeper understanding of that type of training... and not just the training paradigm that's limited to Muay Thai.
     
  3. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Actually, no, kicking slow is something completely different entirely to the concept of deadlifting or squatting large weights. So where in all that stuff did you somehow come to the conclusion that kicking slow aids power and flexibility? I said I'd be willing to concede the point about large weights. That, however, was not the point asked for by the OP. Or have you forgotten what the OP originally asked?
     
  4. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    It's in reference to a thai kick. I think my thai boxing training is enough of a knowledge base.
     
  5. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    No it's not. Especially when in reference to dynamic loaded movements like weighted squat jumps and squat jumps and all the other forms of movement like box jumps and and split lunge jumps. None of those would you start someone out on a the end of the progression curve. You'd start them out on the relatively static, slow and controlled style and move them forward. As a learning aid... and an aid to be able to point out where the strength, balance and flexibility need to be in a kick they're invaluable.

    Because if a kick is broken down into it's movements over the arc of the kick and the person learning how to kick understands each phase of the kick and the posture and the recovery then they're more likely to spend less time programming bad motor skills into their muscle memory and then having to correct them when they can't get the kick down.

    I've seen this for years and years. Much likely long before you were even training. I've also applied to this students for many years. I've seen what different methods of teaching do and how they apply to different demographics. Just because the Thai's do things a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way. Far from it... they have a very different style of learning based heavily on their culture. I've seen what happens when many westerners try to go this route of learning the basics of kicking. I've spent plenty of time helping to correct and essentially rewrite peoples movement patterns because no one ever took the time to break down a movement into components and go through it slowly and without power.

    There are any number of muay thai trainers who do the same. That is the value of kicking slow. You have to widen your understanding of what goes into teaching someone about kicking. Or not... you're entirely free to stick with you existing knowledge base if you think that's sufficient - no one can force you to keep an open mind.

    Again what I've posted is in relation to the OP. Whether or not you're able to see that is another matter entirely.
     
  6. slipthejab

    slipthejab Hark, a vagrant! Supporter

    Yeah lots of people think that. Unfortunately it's very myopic. Most people who train Muay Thai have a very, very limited grasp of functional anatomy and how it actually relates to what they're doing. I'm guessing you fall right into that lot as you were busy referring to physios for plyometrics.

    Teaching is again another paradigm as well. Anyone can throw on Muay Thai shorts and run drills and tire their students out by having the bash away on the heavy bag and the pads.... but to actually pass on an understanding of why their body reacts the way it does and what muscle groups it uses and basic terms and concepts of functional anatomy and movement... well then it requires you to have a much more open mind and the ability not just to have information... but the ability to convey knowledge.

    But I digress... if you feel secure in your training to the point that you feel you don't need to dig deeper and look at the bigger picture then hey that's your choice. Entirely your right. Carry on.
     
  7. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    "What do you want from your training?" would be my question.

    Muay Thai is awesome, but all the fighters are knackered before they are 35 years old (just to clarify here, I only use the Thai roundhouse and teep kicks, in addition to the shin kicks nowdays).

    It is alright training for power and just throwing the kick, but and it is a big but, can you do it slowly. Why do I ask, because if you can't you have no control over your limbs, you leg is just carried by momentum.

    When I first started at 17 I did loads of stretching, both dynamic and static. I also did loads and loads of work holding the back of the chair and kicking, such as shown in the Bill Wallace clip. I could raise my leg slowly, hold it at head height and then place in on a partners shoulder. So in other words I had control over my limbs.

    Now although I don't stretch as much as I should, at 46 years old I can still do the spilts (just). I am convinced it is because the time spent doing static work has become embedded into my muscle memory.

    For what it is worth I think I kick damn hard, but a lot of it is through body mechanics, relaxation, strength yes, but not just throwing the legs.

    Power is nothing without control.

    I have students who go to the gym and lift weights, which I did at their age. I always say the same thing to them. Come back when you are my age and do what I do.

    You must train smart and stretch. Take the burdon away from your body which spends all day driving, at a desk, at work lifting and so on.

    Anyone who thinks I am wrong (the best Thai Boxers included) can come and see me when I am 60 and tell me so.
     
  8. cloudz

    cloudz Valued Member

    Well, I don't know if the following will be helpful. But I noticed you guys were arguing about whether it can be helpful to train slowly(sometimes) or not.

    I'm not knowledgable enough personally to know if the following is right on the money, but I'll throw it out there anyway. in the course of reading this and other forums I sometimes copy and keep certain information for future reference that I like the sound of and is relevent to what I practice. As some of you will know, I practice tai chi, which is typically practiced slowly. I found the following posts to be of interest..

     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  9. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Slow heavy lifts aren't done slowly: they're done as quickly as possible, but the significant mass limits the amount of acceleration achieved.

    If I do "slow squats" with 315lbs, I'm trying to lift it as fast as possible (going slow with a heavy weight on purpose is just screaming for CNS burnout and injury) but you can only move a heavy weight so fast.

    How does that compare to holding your leg in the air?

    I think it's been established that slowing things down is great for learning technique and proper coordination, whether we're talking kicks or lifting. However, once someone has the technique down there's no longer a good reason I can think of to keep slowing things down. And if you do so, it's to reinforce technique.

    The term "slow squats" keeps getting thrown around a lot but everyone is forgetting how much FORCE PRODUCTION is required to squat a really heavy weight at ALL, whether it's slow or not. It takes next to zero force to hold your leg in a static position; just enough to get some localized slow twitch endurance in your hip flexors and/or abductors primarily.

    Is doing a controlled squat with a couple hundred pounds on your back similar to holding your leg in the air with no external weight on it? If you think so, I'd say you're only seeing the obvious details (the apparent speed) and missing the important bits (the power and force production, the amount of mass being moved, the type of muscle fibers being recruited, the involvement of the CNS, etc.)
     
  10. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Without re-reading all posts I cannot recall anyone saying that slow kicks is the only method any good for power delivery. Just that it should not be discounted as part of your training.
     
  11. fire cobra

    fire cobra Valued Member

    "but all the fighters are knackered before they are 35 years old"

    Where did that stat come from! I know plenty of ex Nak Muay who are no way knackered and they are well past 35 years of age,Im 53 and can still kick,actually its Bill Wallace that had the double hip replacement many years ago!.

    Also Simon whats a Muay Thai shin kick if it isnt a round kick?.:)
     
  12. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    I know a lot as well. Far as I can tell they just retire because they cant keep that edge that they need to stay ranked at raja or lumpinee anymore and would make more money as a coach. Every single coach in thailand was an ex fighter but they seem pretty spry to me.
     
  13. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    Finally, someone else seems to be responding directly to the OP with regards to power and flexibility... rather than technique.
     
  14. Master Betty

    Master Betty Banned Banned

    And once again you completely miss the mark. I can only assume one of a small number of possibilties. Either A) you've spent so long abroad that your understanding of English has degraded, B) You haven't even read the OP nevermind the whole thread or C) you're simply posting contradictory posts because of a childish dislike for me.

    Let me say it again - oh and NOTHING you've said has provided any evidence to the contrary for this - kicking slow does NOT build flexibilty or power. I already said earlier that you MAY be able to correct a degree of technique by kicking SLOWER (note, i exclude crap like billy wally advocates), but correcting technique is NOT training power or flexibilty. At least, not in the way in which the OP quite obviously meant it. You've made contradictory statments to these points previously, yet every time you comment you either quote VERY selectively or out of context, then you start arguing the point on a subject which is always NEARLY what I was saying, but just different enough to be completely bollocks. Now if you're done being a contradictory menace to the internet can you please follow the rest of the thread a bit more dilligently and stop acting so goddamn childish.

    If you've got an issue with me, at least have the balls to say it like a man instead of being contradictory, childish, lying, condescending, petty and above all else hypocritical. If you have to do that in a PM then go ahead, just stop pretending that you're so "above it all" when you're motivations are clearly no different you pretentious prig.
     
  15. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    Now what if you practice those slow kicks with a pair of work boots on, or some ankle weights?

    The OP asked if slow kicking could improve strength and flexibility in one's kicks. There are many different types of strength. Strength endurance is the combination of slow twitch and fast twitch to continue to display power over an extended period of time. Slow kicking can develop strength endurance, therefore it can develop strength. Part of flexibility is also strengthening through the range of motion, which if you want a higher kick the best way to get one is by practicing higher kicks. Slow kicking therefore can also improve flexibility.

    Everything from this point on is everyone either agreeing or disagreeing on different training methodologies. Just ten years ago, the exercise physiology field would be scratching their heads at all the athletes we have now flipping tires, the differences between GPP and SPP, and all the other current training fads. Ten years from now everything will most likely be all different again. Just because things are "old" doesn't mean they're not useful at all to the modern athlete.

    Kenji Midori, the fellow I posted before, has also coached many successful knockdown fighters and has emphasized slow squat kicks in their training too. And some of his fighters have brutal kicks. If you want stronger legs, look at the array of exercises you can do to strengthen them: back squats, front squats, overhead squats, deadlifts, pistols, lunges, single-leg deadlifts, sandbag squats, yoke walks, heavy carries, sled dragging, car pushing, plyometric jumps, step-ups, cleans, high pulls, etc. Regardless of which one or couple you pick, ALL will give you stronger legs.

    Again, strength training is not mutually exclusive to anything. Get strong in one aspect of strength, you will get stronger in other areas. Gain endurance in one area, it will give you more in others. Granted, being awesome in one will not make you awesome at all others, but it will correlate.
     
  16. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Yes, there are many different types of strength. This has been brought up and addressed already. A couple times if I'm not mistaken.

    The type of strength that you develop by holding your leg in the air (localized endurance of slow twitch fibers) is not the type of strength that helps you kick someone harder (rapid force development from fast twitch fibers in the hip and knee extensors).

    While it can help improve technique, which ALWAYS improves your kick strength, you haven't added power to the human machine, you've allowed it to more efficiently apply the power it can already generate in a specific movement. If you want to improve the amount of power that your machine can generate, you lift heavy things, and lift semi-heavy things explosively.

    This might sound shocking, but holding your arms out in front of you for 20 minutes straight will do nothing for your punching strength either ;)

    Again, you're referencing popular understanding of science with the "behind the scenes" action. We've known for longer than 10 years why the things you referenced work. As Charles Poliquin often says, "There's nothing knew under the sun".

    Fads come and go, but the underlying science changes very little.
    Those fighters also probably brush their teeth every day, but I'm not about to conclude causation where I find association, especially if it contradicts simple facts about human physiology.
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2011
  17. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    However, if you want to keep kicking that person harder rather than just a handful of times, it's going to have some positive correlation. Again - I would rather have someone work a proper back squat than do some crazy Bosu ball squat, but if the crazy Bosu ball squat can help someone more than that, then that's what works for them.

    That's because they're designed to be that way. Raising your leg as high as you can in the air is different due to the leverage. That's why an inverted body row is a heck of a lot easier than a pull-up, and an Iron Cross is way harder than a pull-up.

    Hence why I emphasized "old." Things that are fashionable now were also used years ago. That's how kettlebells were "rediscovered", using just one example. That's why in his book from the early 1900s Arthur Saxon is scoffing at the critics who claim muscle mass will slow you down. The same principles and myths will continue to exist for a long time.

    Slow kicks cover the training principles of specificity (training the kick) and overload (you can increase reps, sets, or reduce rest periods). Much like any body weight exercise, it can and will make you stronger. Once you reach a certain point, that is where you need to adjust it so you can continue to provide progressive resistance.
     
  18. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Slow-twitch endurance does not have a positive correlation to how many times you can explode with your fast twitch fibers. Like I said before, walking doesn't help you sprint.

    Slow kicking is not specific to kicking, and it does NOT produce overload.

    You repeatedly fail to justify the claims you make, even when they fly in the face of established science. It seems to me you just really can't let go of static kicking. That's fine. You love it. Keep doing it. But stop pretending it's founded in biomechanics. It's not.
     
  19. Kuma

    Kuma Lurking about

    "Supertraining" would disagree with you considering the example of strength endurance I produced.

    As I already mentioned before, you can produce overload with shorter rest periods, more reps, or even slowing the movement down. The main idea of overload is to create a greater stress than normal. You can accomplish that.

    I fail to see how, when the last two things you were just arguing against were overlooked. Is it optimal for some? No. But can it be a useful training medium for others? Yes.
     
  20. Socrastein

    Socrastein The Boxing Philosopher

    Could you cite the Supertraining section you mentioned?

    You've never addressed my point on minimal essential strain. The concept of overload doesn't apply unless the MES is met. I could write a progression for holding one's arm over the head that would slowly "overload" the movement for 12 weeks. And after 12 weeks it would have done exactly nothing for the client.

    You haven't addressed the difference in force production. You haven't addressed the REASON why heavy squats are slow, and how that is different than a slow kick. You haven't explained how training your slow-twitch fibers somehow improves recruitment of your fast-twitch fibers.

    You keep asserting that slow kicks are good because X. When X is rebutted, you don't acknowledge it, you just make a slightly different point.

    I think that's a good place to start.
     

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