Slapping the mat in breakfalls

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Southpaw535, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    I've been wondering for a while now about whether slapping the mat in a breakfall serves a purpose? I sort of vaguely understand the mechanics of why breakfalling works, but I'm curious on people's opinion on adding the slap?

    Basically, I know myself I've mistimed my slaps and not really achieved anything. Watching slowed down footage of takedown drills from bjj and mma classes, I see plenty of people slapping the mat either before their body hits, or after, and defeating the purpose.

    Added to this, a little while ago I got back into watching pro wrestling and obviously that involves a hell of a lot of breakfalling, and I noticed they never slap. That might be to do with not making it obvious, but wrestlers seem to prefer to spread their body from the start and simply land with as much contact as possible across their body rather than time a slap.

    Without understanding the science, I'd assume slapping, if done right, is better at dissipating the impact by delivering some force the other way (apologies if I've just made anyone who understands physics cry), but the difficulty in timing it correctly makes simply spreading a more reliable alternative?
     
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  2. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Slapping has two main benefits,
    1) the main one, it stops you posting and breaking a collarbone/arm, so timing of the slap doesn't matter so much.

    2) it disapates some of the force, but only some, and it depends on which breakfall is used.

    It's most apparent in side breakfalls and only a little bit on rear breakfalls, and of course in front breakfast there's no slap but your forearms hit the mat to save your face.

    Spreading also works, but theirs a lot more rotation/torque due to the Gi in judo so that's why the different method evolved, and why side slaps are so prevalent.

    Iirc ukemi was ditched in the BJA during the 80's because "it just made people too comfortable to take falls" so then it was noticed, Injuries went up massively, and it eventually got reintroduced.
     
  3. YouKnowWho

    YouKnowWho Valued Member

    You have only 2 arms. If you use

    - 1 arm as soft pillow to protect the back of your head from hitting on the ground.
    - 1 arm to protect your opponent's elbow from dropping on your head.

    You will have no free arm left to slap on the ground. It's a trade off and your own choice.
     
  4. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Different break falls suit different situations. Take the backward break fall with both arms slapping downward at around 45 degrees. Here the slap works to both dissipate energy and to help you time the roll. as you hands hit the floor you can index it and that helps with relaxing the rest of the body as it makes contact with the floor so dissipating the energy smoothly and allowing for a conversion to a smooth roll across the back and shoulder. Works great so long as there is no one attached to your body at the time and also you have your hands near your waist. So not good if the opponent follows you down into the mount because your arms get trapped.




    A better backward breakfall for when a opponent is attached or following is the more cursifiform slap at 90 degrees. This does not dissipate the energy as well. it is uncomfortable because it can shock the sholderbades and upper back. it relys heavily on having good muscle density to absorb much of the impact. But it can cope with more force and is better at protecting the head from rolling into the floor. it also ends with the hands at shoulder height so that you can protect if mounted.

     
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  5. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    It could also be that slapping is an quick and easy way of learning to fall with greater safety. in judo and wresting you get thrown a lot. so you might develop better skills at controlling your body in the air and as it hits the ground. allowing you to dispense with the slap. Although I am sure I have seen wrestlers using slapping break falls. I suspect its not that wrestlers dont slap. its that they do it less.

     
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  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Personally I prefer a backwards breakfall with a 45 degree or less angle on the arms, anything close to 90 degrees is very close to a posting angle so injury is more likely in newbies, plus my mount defence is based on keeping my elbows close to my ribs, to for non newbies (I. E. Myself) I feel this is better.

    But horses for courses........
     
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  7. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    Sorry my bad i was unclear in my language, but if you look at the videos you will see that the angle I mean is not the angle of the arms to the floor (you are correct anything near a straight arm i bad) but to the angle of the arms to the shoulders. so in the first vid you can see that her hands are near her hips and the angle of the arms to the shoulders around 45 degrees. in the second video the angle of the arms to the shoulders is closer to ninety.
     
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  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    That's what I mean too! 90degrees in the shoulder is fine (although not with my shoulders!) if your back is flat, but if it's a bit rotated then it can turn into a post, keeping it 45 degrees just introduces some redundancy safety, so if they rotate a little/a lot it's still super far away from being a post.

    Also on a busy mat, it's a little safer from having others thrown into your outstretched arms, and your less likely to miss the mat, and hit the hard floor outside the mats.

    Saying that I know some very very good people who use a 90 degree angle.

    Edit also the 45 makes the backwards roll easier when drilling, and inverting guard too.
     
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  9. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    Thanks for the replies guys, its some interesting stuff
     
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  10. Tom bayley

    Tom bayley Valued Member

    yep i see what you mean. :) and your other points make good practical sense too.

    Personally I prefer the 45 degree version because I am old and a wus and the 90 degree version hurts. but if I am rotating into the floor as I am thrown or if I am getting ridden to the floor so there is more mass and more energy involved I would do the 90 degree version because I can protect my neck/ head better from whiplash at a cost of taking more of a hit to my back.
     
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  11. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    Technically there shouldn't be a slap (as in the sound.) With break falls, rolling, etc. you are learning to dissipate force and the less sound generated, the better.
     
  12. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    With Rolling the less sound the better, but with breakfalls you want a loud slapping noise. I cup my hand when I breakfall too, it makes an air pocket and protects the hand a little more.
     
  13. Latikos

    Latikos Valued Member

    I learned it just the way Dead_pool describes it.

    I was also told not to have the arms in a 90° angle, due to the shock to the shoulders.
    And I agree with it; didn't felt too good when I had them there once after I was thrown (still glad, that this was a one-time-event).
    I didn't injure myself and it didn't even actually hurt longer then a second, but also didn't feel right.
     
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  14. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    In judo, we were taught that it was used to dissipate the force, as most have said on here.
    In conjunction with that, the thrower in practice with hold the other arm and pull up just after throwing to help prevent them landing on the back.

    When it comes to randori, this is practised to a lesser degree, and it can form bad habits when competing, i.e I lost my first few competitions because my break fall was good, which made for a very clear ippon when I was thrown. In competing we started to un learn the break fall to some degree so that you could stifle a good throw by posting.
     
  15. Mushroom

    Mushroom De-powered to come back better than before.

    My breakfalls from wrestling / nogi/bjj are all the same. I land correctly and sometimes the impact will make a slap sound. Sometimes it doesn't. I seen people pretty much have completed a fall, and the slap was more like an after thought.

    The only time I ever deliberately slapped the ground, is when I was doing stunt falls on hard ground. Same as what Pro Wrestlers do. When used in that context, its to relay to the audience that an impact has occurred. (builds the scene, environment, etc..)
     
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  16. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    I've seen two arms shattered from posting incorrectly, its sometimes safer to turn and front break fall instead if the throw is a large one!
     
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  17. SCA

    SCA Former Instructor

    As mushroom mentioned, sometimes there may be a slap. I don't know what deliberately slapping the ground with your hand is supposed to achieve in this context, though. I was taught otherwise.

    :shrug:
     
  18. axelb

    axelb Master of Office Chair Fu

    That sounds nasty! I wasn't ever confident to post, so I'm glad I didn't follow that route. I know someone who broke all their fingers doing it, better to work out how to counter the throw instead.
     
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  19. Southpaw535

    Southpaw535 Well-Known Member Moderator Supporter

    So its not necessarily unanimous to teach people to actively slap the ground when they breakfall then? Like doing a back fall I was taught to start almost with my arms in front of me and throw them back as I fell so I'd slap them on the mat as my back hit. Same with side falls, the hand would be at, say, the right shoulder to fall left and deliberately slap the floor as you landed.
     
  20. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    As long as you don't post, then how you manage the impact is down to you, judo competitors regularly don't slap in ukemi as it gives the ippon away, but turn to land face down instead.

    The thing is, all beginners will try to post, it's why people break their collar bones with little trips, In everyday life.
     
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