Professor Shuras, I understand what you have stated on the orher thread and agree with you. What I was saying was that the Brockton Academy of Kenpo did not/would not go beyound the 40. When I started only 26 were taught to the small numbers of schools within the organization. After awhile it went to 32 then finally to 40. During the mid 70's our school, along with a few other schools refused to go beyond the first 40. One of the reasons for this refusal was that the material kept getting changed, sometimes monthly. I believe that this mini revolt was one of the reasons that influenced Fred V and his band of merry men to cut back on the amount of "required" material. In 1975 -76 the Brockton, Hanover & Fairhaven(mine) and a few others used this material, Combo's 1 - 40, Kenpo's 1 - 61 Clubs,Guns,Knives totaled 90+ (I will check this number later on). Forms 1 - 5 P 1 - 6 K Shodanqua, (Island Form) Spelled this way around 1970 Honsuki, (Hansuki) spelled 2 ways over the years,(including Onsuki). 2 Man Kata, Swift Tiger. Weapons forms Most of these forms had been originally imported from other systems like, Shotokan, Hung Gar, Gung Fu and other like systems. Have a good day,
Al, #40 combination looks like it may have been inspired by EPAK's Leaping Crane and possibly a NCK technique based on the simultaneous backfist/side blade kick (right & left) at the end of #1 kata. This was, I think a Cerio modification. I say that for two reasons. I have a picture of Prof. Cerio doing this in his NCIMAA NewsLetter and also in one of his older books. I lost the book but I just sent to Shihan John James for another copy and I'll check it out. The other reason is Nick Cerio was not taught the kata that way from George Pesare, it is the fist over fist w/ the side kick in the original KGS form created by Sonny Gascon. The same side kick/back fist shows up in 4 & 5 pinan also that Cerio added to the system. I used to spell 'Shou Tung Kwok' that way too, (Shodanqua) I guess most of us pronounced it phonetically on the way we thought it sounded like (speculation on my part) but then when Black Belt magazine came out in May of '75, Fred villari spelled it Shou Tung Kwok. - Joe
I agree. The early SKK group was trying to build and organize. Back then the reason for the 26 to 32 then to 40 and so on was these were the one's that the USSD were going to officially use during this period of developement. I do realize that the group knew many more. I just read my "75" book, Combo's - 41, Kenpo Punch - 61. My 76 -78 book lists 60 combo's, Kenpos -61. Note - this book contains no update add in pages. Many from the early group were fighters, either from the ring, full contact, and/or well known street fighters. This caused a few of the problems with acceptance of the newer versions of old material and the new material itself. Many of the early (now)seniors were realists, they wanted the material to work as presented not as an "if" or "ideal situation". Much of the material was being presented / altered to quickley. Again this was due to the fact that the USSD was a loosely organized group but they were also working very hard to become a well organized group. Professor Shuras, how high in number did the pre-sets go in SGM Pesare's system at the time when the USSD was first being formed? To me the numbers of pre-set's per rank and the various names of forms hold little or no meaning. What is important to me is the developmental stages for the material and the reasons behind the changes. And can the material be, as given, applied correctly. I still spell it that way, old ingrained ways die hard.
Gm. Al, I'll inquire but as far back as I remember with SGM. Pesare it was 21. He would say in classes: "There are 21 combinations in the Kempo system. If you are creative and imaginative you will have 100's. If you are uncreative and unimaginative, you will always have just 21." He has kept the forms the same from how he was taught but as either replaced or modified some of the combinations. Some, not all. Last I knew, he was thinking of putting the original material back in the 21 probably because of the last 6-7 years of everyone being inquisitive about the 'original' stuff. I remember in F.V. Framingham school in 1974 it had a building permit for the business for 1971. Also, there was a curriculum in the file cabinet (I still have it) that had been used in those very early years. I can't tell you the exact year but it appeared it was there around when the school opened. It had all the requirements to achieve orange belt to black (as you know, we had no yellow then). I'm not at the school where I have it but from memory here goes. For shodan, 1-21, 26 & 28 combinations (right & left side), 24 punch techniques, 9 clubs, 9 knife, 6 gun and any number of grabs for all the possibilities. The sheet listed a number for grabs up to green belt. I recall around green it stated any number over 10. It also had half mooning and shuffling with punches, kicks, Chinese leg movements, etc. Blocking systems 8 pt. & 10 pt. (when I started the Plum was optional to be learned at brown-first section, but mandatory-the whole thing, after your black. Some instructors gave the first section at purple. I got it at purple and had the rest by brown or at brown, don't recall but I did the whole thing for my black belt test (1977). I remember distinctly because I got some brownie points, lol, because no one else had it. - Joe
Material I have seen both on this forum and the MartialTalk forum much conversation about the similarities between the various early Kenpo/Kempo systems like Karazenpo, SGM Pesarie system, SGM Villari system and the SKK systems. As Prof. Shuras and Master Barnes have stated on other threads some of the preset material is very close and other preset material is not. On the surface the preset material seems to be similar but in the most important area they are very far apart. I have been reading the various SKK material on Master Barnes forum and, combined with my experience/interactions with the other systems, have been doing my own comparison. Much of the preset material is pretty much the same, it is the understanding of the material that is vastly different. The tactial theories, concepts and other likes are vastly different. Preset patterns are just a demonstration of how various concepts and tactical theories are applied. *A system is defined by the interpertation of it's own preset material and not the material itself.
Lineage Danjo, Tuesday or Wednesday I will write on this forum my response. It will be also posted on my own forum tomorrow night.
