SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by kouryuu, Oct 18, 2006.

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  1. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Actually, I was thinking of something Don Roley said a ways back. It was some nonsense about how you could give hamon passively, when that's nonsense.

    Aside from the judo and aiki, I suppose I have about as much experience with budo as the average Booj-er.
     
  2. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Filling the holes

    Time for some real-time interpretation of Hayes' comments on his website.... ;) Comments in parentheses are added by me for clarification; it seems like the Quest crowd has a habit of omitting relevant information and claiming it is irrelevant. :rolleyes:


    "Short follow-up to the note on wild hysterical internet rumors below. So far, Hatsumi Sensei does not seem to have anything public (or privately for that fact) to say about these rumors (that he publicly took down my judan plaque, indicating that I am no longer a recognized member of his dojo) or the people so intent on spreading them, or at least nothing he is willing to discus in detail (despite me sending a letter to him just days after the removal and he still refuses to answer me, his one true student, who got all those secret teachings and knows his innermost thoughts. How many days has it been since I sent my letter? I've lost count. Maybe I'll get a Christmas package!). Rumiko and I recently received a package of diplomas for our students who asked us for Bujinkan diploma licensing (which is good that they don't have to suffer for my personal missteps), and Sensei (or the admin guy who processes these things) just sent them along to us in his usual prompt and cheerful way (but inexplicably forgot to answer the most pressing question of my relationship with him: where exactly do I stand? Hm...). Obviously, he still considers us as part of the team, despite the rumors to the contrary (and despite the fact that he still hasn't replied to my letter and despite the fact that my plaque is sitting in a Hombu drawer by the sink). Who knows what is the real motive for the rumors (which was started by all those evil-doers who said aloud, "Wow! If that ain't a hint, I don't know what is?"). I guess we will have to ask him in person when we visit him again next (seeing how he refuses to reply to my written inquiries and treats me like a person non grata. Hm... I wonder why he hasn't written back? I wonder if it is connected with the fact that I do not "exist" anymore? Nah, couldn't be. My Budo Bat-sense doesn't register on that scale). "Stay tuned..." is all we can offer for now (because I personally cannot understand, despite my years of experience and deep knowledge of Budo, that the removal of my plaque from the Hombu dojo wall is symbolic and that the expectation is for me to be a man, read the tea leaves, and go on my merry way, showing people why "traditional training will get you killed" but this other stuff I've cobbled together will save your life). That, and an admonishment to keep training diligently in pursuit of your personal goals in the martial arts (even if those goals trample all over the desires of your teacher, to whom you owe eternal thanks for his guidance (and all those secret teachings))."


    -ben
     
  3. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Yes, and it was reserved for people who held menkyo kaiden in an art under a Soke. Hamon would essentially "void" all such "licensing-level legitimacy" by removing the individual's ability to give ranks as a menkyo kaiden.

    Hayes never had menkyo kaiden in any of Soke's arts (or the Bujinkan) so "Hamon" per se is not an appropriate vehicle. Taking his plaque down and ignoring all his attempts at communication seems pretty unambiguous as well, for someone with no menkyo kaiden.

    Don Roley's suggestion (on a different board) was that there are ways of accomplishing the same thing as Hamon, which is a salient point when Hamon is inappropriate given the relative unimportance of the individual. That's what he was referring to....

    -ben
     
  4. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    :D :rolleyes: ;) ain't it a grin how our art engages all these folks from other styles so much yet they pretend to be just so disinterested in silly ninja stuff. :D
    In the 6 years I have been on the net I can't ever remember going into an aiki or judo or any other styles forum for that matter to even read what go's on in them. ;) :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  5. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Ben,
    Do you know if Hatsumi ever formally gave Tanemura or Manaka Hamon? Or was it always more of a "He's on the blacklist, so don't go there"? If there is a precedent it would be interesting to know why Hayes avoided the Hamon..But I wasn't aware of a precedent..Besides all this, a Hamon is made public among a group of like minded individuals in order to let others know what the person is like and what he/she has done..Or not done..In the Ninpo context the only group seems to be the Bujinkan..So the use of Hamon is refined to an Inter Bujinkan thing where those inside know to stay away..Surely?
    I am aware of what was done in the past with Hamon, but this is not that, there is no han no inform, and no other schools to tell...So, an in school info maybe what was chosen by Hatsumi when making his choice..
    Are you aware of any previous formal Hamon, and who they were issued too?And who the hamon was made public too?
    Sorry for the demands..No need to answer..I don't have a cart in the race..
    Regards.
     
  6. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Hamon is still used in gendai or gendai-like systems. Here's an example from karate:

    http://www.meibukai.com/meibukai/Organization/hamon-tallack.asp

    Many organizations do not publicize hamon incidents, but they're pretty formal in execution. Part of the gesture of a hamon is also a directive not to use any of the distinctive marks of the school in question. This would include Hatsumi's likeness for starters. Since it's in Hatsumi's power to remove his image from Hayes publicity, this probably should have been done.

    One point of confusion seems to be that Hatsumi is issuing these certificates but as we can see from previous posts, the training comes from Toshindo. Now I suppose we can pretend that Hayes turns into a Bujinkan kancho for the Kasumi-an branch for the sake of these grades, but that doesn't work either because he doesn't have any Bujinkan rank any more.

    I can see how Hatsumi doesn't want to punish people who had nothing to do with Hayes' decisions, but it remains a very odd state of affairs and a less than ideal one from an administrative standpoint.
     
  7. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    They formally started their own branches of the arts involved, so it's kind of like firing somebody after they quit.
     
  8. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    I also studied Bujinkan arts in the early 90s, actually. I'm interested in a couple of the ryuha.
     
  9. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Perhaps so..Although he may have issued some form of remonstrance before they left to start their respective schools..
    Are there any instances where Hatsumi has given Hamon to someone then? That anyone knows about?
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  10. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    I think you would need to Ask this of one of the Shihan or Soke himself if your game enough :D. To the best of my understanding , yes Hamon has been given in the Bujinkan once.
     
  11. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Whiteshadow posts
    Why would he want to?

    Mr Hayes will always (regardless of any relationship that exists or does not exist between Dr Hatsumi and himself) be linked with Dr Hatsumi and known as the man that brought the art of Ninjutsu i.e the arts of Hatsumi and Takamatsu into the western world. Sure there were a few others that wrote the odd book, but it is Mr Hayes that will always be known as the pioneer.

    Mr Hayes was in Japan in the early days i.e the 1970s, way before any of us here on the net had even heard of Dr Hatsumi and as such was privy to seeing Dr Hatsumi teach the arts as taught to him by his teacher Takamatsu only a couple of years after his death. Mr Hayes therefore was one of the original Shihan and will have experienced training at a time that none of us will probably ever experience.

    Mr Hayes runs a successful martial arts school with branches in the USA (18 I believe at present) with approx 7 groups in the UK using the To-Shin Do sylabus to teach their students. Some of these teachers are ex Bujinkan who have been so impressed with the level of Mr Hayes martial art that they have switched over. I believe I might also be correct in saying that other teachers in other coutries might also be following suit very soon if not already. To-Shin Do is growing.

    In regard to the above point Mr Hayes gets to travel the world. Mr Hayes will be in the UK next year possibly for 3 days teaching. We are even looking at one day in Scotland. In 2005 we had approx 60 people on the seminar, and approx 90 on the 2006 one. We expect a hundred plus next year. And of course this year also saw one of Mr Hayes students and hombu Shihan Mr Norris here in the UK for a couple of days. To-Shin Do in the UK is certainly growing.

    From a financial point of view unlike many of us, Mr Hayes has reached the point where he can devote most of his time to just training either in the dojo or like more recently spending a month with the monks in Nepal or learning more and more about the spiritual traditions of Japan.

    As for his place in the world of martial arts in general, well how many in the Bujinkan world have received a Black Belt Hall of Fame honour, Get to rub shoulders with people like Muhamed Ali and get invited to birthday parties like Elton Johns.

    As for the martial art he teaches. In 21 years of the ninja arts I have never seen such a pragmatic martial arts system like what is taught within To-Shin Do, not of course including the fantastic Classical Martial arts DVDs i.e Gyokko Ryu, Takagi Yoshin Ryu that are being sold world wide and to many a Bujinkan member. Theres also I believe a possibility of another book coming out from Ohara Publications. So obviously interest still there.

    And finally of course if Mr Hayes did rejoin the Bujinkan and actively visit Japan to train once again, I don't for one minute think that everything would be hunki dori (A kind of wrist lock for those new to the art) and everyone would be one happy family. Mr Hayes wasn't particularly liked by some when he was in the Bujinkan. I remember even back 10 or more years ago the rumours that Mr and Mrs Hayes were getting divorced. And to be honest why would he want to be a member of a dojo where such notables as Manaka, Tanemura, Muramatsu, Charles Daniel and Doron Navon have left. Hmm wonder why they left?

    So tell me. Why would Mr Hayes want to rejoin the Bujinkan?

    Gary Arthur
     
  12. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Feeling a bit peevish Garth? ;)

    Nice sales advert. Seems to have failed to note how he is being deceptive about his relationship with Soke. Why would anyone want to train with someone who is so obviously being deceitful when he talks about his relationship with Soke? Why would someone train under a person with that type of charecter?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  13. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Posted by Fifth Chamber
    Probably not, but do you remember all those rumours about the fight at the funeral in regard to Mr Tanemura, not unlike the so called shouting match last time Mr Hayes and Dr Hatsumi met. As for Mr Manaka isn't Dr Hatsumi reissueing the old DVDs with Mr Manakas scenes cut out. Personally I find that part deplorable. Mr Manak was one of the top three original Shihans i.e Ishizuka, Tanemura and Manaka, and its like Dr Hatsumi is trying to erase all knowledge of him, even though Mr Manaka was given Menkyo Kaiden.

    In the previous post I wrote
    It seems that once you leave the Bujinkan there are sometimes some underhanded tactics used in an attempt to make it look like you never really existed. Maybe thats why the palque was taken down. "Hey Mr Hayes is doing his own thing, lets pretend he never ever existed even though without him no one would know about Ninjutsu and Dr Hatsumi wouldn't be a millionaire". Which brings me on to a point made by one of those that had been involved in the early days before most of us here had actually heard of Dr Hatsumi and had the guts to leave i.e Charles Daniel.

    Gary Arthur
     
  14. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Change in tactics Garth back to the toshindo infomercial :D

    :D Yes what ever Garth what ever :D

    :D :D Maybe you should ask Mr Hayes that question yourself and get him to send you transcripts of the 2 letters he wrote to Soke in English the last one a month ago that were translated by Buyu I know personally for Hatsumi sensei . LOL :D
     
  15. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Last time I checked, nobody was saying that anyone who left the Bujinkan had never existed. And some of the people you list are still in AFAIK. You seem to be interested in spreading some weird theories and taking things out on the Bujinkan. I probably would be a little mad too if I had just been exposed as you have.

    But is nice that we have reached a point where you openly acknowledge that Steve is no longer a member of the Bujinkan or a student of Soke! What a change that is!
     
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Grimjack wrote
    Really. From what I read Mr Hayes seems as puzzled by the whole thing as the rest of us. I can't seem to find any comment from Mr Hayes that their relationship is great, neither can i find anything from Mr Hayes that their relationship is bad. From Doctor Hatsumi there has been no answer to Mr Hayes letter. So I guess one could say that it is Dr Hatsumi that is being deceptive. Especially since he is still sending diplomas.

    As Mr Hayes says, I guess we will find out the answer next year when he visits Dr Hatsumi.

    Better ask your students.

    Any way before we go any further shall we look at what Xen posted

    Gary Arthur
     
  17. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Its clear that he is being deceitful. Either that or he is just too dense to understand what everyone here seems to.

    I
    Oh, and then you added the comment to keep things clean. ;)

    Standard tactic we seem to see from the Koga Kola crowd here. Once their own duplicity is exposed they go on the offensive against the Takamatsu-den. Garth is now using the same tacitcs that the Koga Kolas like to use.

    But I am glad that I quoted your entire post about why Steve would not want to go back to the Bujinkan. You can still edit the original post and later try to deny that you talked about Steve going back to the Bujinkan- which of course means he is not part of it, but the quote will stay around for people to see. :cool:
     
  18. 2E0WHN

    2E0WHN Valued Member

    Now that would be worth seeing. Someone take a digital video camera to record it. :D
     
  19. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    And as for me, no, I won't write to either Mr. Hatsumi or Mr. Ohashi, I respect their time far too much to take either of them up with a question that, at least to me has been answered several times already. I don't need the answer to be explicit because it already is...I was just wondering why some people don't see what I see here..
    Anyway, thank you for your reply.
    My regards.
     
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Grimjack posted
    Which is a standard tactic used by people like Grimjack when they don't have an answer to the previous post.

    Gary Arthur
     
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