SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by kouryuu, Oct 18, 2006.

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  1. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    The fundamental problem with this discussion is that Gary might not entirely understand what the Shobukyoku sets are. They were introduced to the Kukishin Ryu Shobukyoku school in order to teach the basics of the Bojutsu to the students there..That is the reason that the movements look the same as those done in the Hanbojutsu Book (Q. Chambers)...They are the same..But the waza are not the kihon..Just made up of them...Of course Hatsumi knows the waza...They are Kukishin..But there is no evidence that he specifically knows the set introduced after his teacher had set up the group (Shobukyoku). He doesn't show these basics..Never has...I'm sure he may have the book and be aware of them...But he teaches differently and doesn't use the shobukyoku sets to demonstrate what can be learnt in the waza.
    Kuji is often used in martial arts circles..It's inclusion in a name points to absolutely nothing...Especially in the Kukishin Ryu where I believe a lot of work is tied into the use of it..It is the same Kuji as used in Kuji Kiri....It is not rare and it does not mean that those waza that have the name in the title are the same.....
    Gary, I still don't see where you have shown that Hatsumi knows the Shobukyoku sets...Nothing has been said here to indicate that..Hatsumi knows the Kukishinden waza..Of course...And has demonstrated them repeatedly...But not the specific set referred to as the Shobukyoku forms...Only those who were after Kiba Koshira perform these sets because he was the man responsible for creating them for the shobukyoku...Not Takamatsu...
    I would be sure that Hatsumi can do these movements..As head of one branch of the Kukishin Ryu I would expect him to be able to do them perfectly..But he does not demonstrate them as part of his syllabus..I would argue that he believes it is better to teach the kata and then allow development on those rather than work harder on the kihon that the Shobukyoku sets introduce...
    Perhaps this is a reason that Steve's set looks so different...Maybe he just learnt the kihon used in the Kukishin Ryu as taught by Hatsumi and added the same names to them as those used in the Shobukyoku set..That seems reasonable as he may want to work more on kihon than Hatsumi does...He's never said that they are Shobukyoku right?So they may just be Kihon he formulated using the basics found in the Kukishinden Waza he was taught...Who knows..
    This entire thread has been one of the hardest I have ever bothered to follow..It still makes no sense....But bottom line is that it's more fun to watch if you don't care either way..
  2. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    That is entirely the point.
  3. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Fifth Chamber posted
    Been looking for my Hanbojustu book by Tanemura. I can't find it so this is from memory. But if I remember correctly actually what is practiced within the Bujinkan has quite a few changes made by Takamatsu. the kamae for example come from the Shinden Tatara ryu. Kukishin Ryu Hanbo jutsu has 5 kamae. Kangi no kamae, Danpi no kamae etc. Origiinally called Kangi no sugata etc. Now of course we have Otonashi, Katayaburi and Munen Muso. These are not Kukishin origiannly if I remember correctly. Anyone got a copy of that book?

    Thats why I just said that its interesting.

    Theres actually a fair amount of evidence that he does. For a start it seems like some members of the Bujinkan may have learnt it, and its almost without question that takamatsu knew it. After all he reconstructed all of the kukishin ryu.

    Who said the shobukyoku were Kihon?
    Actually what is seen in the Kiba Koshira book is only part of the Kuji No Bo.
    There are 18 forms. 9 for attacking and 9 where the swordman initiate the attack.

    Again going from memory I believe they are called the Kuji Kutsu and Kuji Kyoho

    From what i have seen, these forms are incredibly fast in their execution and would need an advanced practicioner to make them really work.

    Your grasping at straws, but if you are refering to the bojustu moves on the end of Hatsumis Bojutsu DVD these kata are different from the Kuji set.

    You obviously have not done the Kuji No Bo.

    Grimjack posted in responce to Shinsen
    But Hatsumi did bring out a DVD on Bokuden Ryu, taught to him by Ueno. Hatsumi was given Hamon by Ueno

    Of course he still produced the DVD even though he was Hamon. So if he knows the Bokuden Ryu he probably also knows the Kuji No Bo.

    Grimjack also posted
    The Kiba Koshira book is a very bad representation of the Bojutsu. If one looks at the sabaki Gata in that book one can see that there are some parts missing or not quite complete. I think I remember a story about how Takamatsu taught the Kuki family the Kukishin Ryu, but did not give them everything because he thought they were stupid for loosing all the techniques in the first place.

    Go and do the Kuji No Ho, and not from a book Grimjack. I can't believe you said

    I know you are accusing Mr Hayes of learning this stuff from DVDs but we don't all look at a set of kata and then say to ourselves"Oh yes seen the book, I can do them"

    Gary Arthur
  4. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    No matter what Takamatsu sensei did, if one of his students created something like the Kuji no ho, as Kiba Koshira did, then he would not automatically know it. Listen to what Fifthchamber says.

    And what members of the Bujinkan know it? Sean Askew? He posts over at Kutaki. Ask him if he learnt it or saw it in the Bujinkan.

    You had better check with some real sources before you try to make that case. Soke has not had hamon given to him or it would be common knowledge. It just goes to show what George Kohler says about you.

    Oh, and who taught Steve the Kuji no ho? If you know, you should say instead of giving the same type of excuses that the Koga Kola folks give.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2006
  5. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    And no...I haven't done "Kuji no Bo"....I have seen it, and read about it, and seen an instructor of mine who has..And I have spoken to my friend about it since he is a member of the Kukishin Ryu....But I don't train in the Bujinkan..Never have..Never wanted too...
    Whatever gave you that idea?
    I do, however speak Japanese, read it..And can work out what these terms mean better than you..That's not a put down..Just fact.
    I agree though..This thread is not worth the time..
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Dale Seago posted
    Dale i'm kind of cutting my own throat here (I know some of you are saying "Go on then") but I think they are different from the Kuji No Bo.

    This is complete guess, and a hypothesis just based on name similarity alone, but they could be Shinden Tatara Ryu. This of course is now taught by Tanemura. However on saying this the Kangi, Yakugi etc could be just older names for some kata. One only has to look in Hatsumis Bojustu book and see that sometimes he gives different names for Seigan Ichimonji etc.

    Ben Cole posted
    Or three knows a lot more about Japanese culture and knows that what he has done is being very misunderstood.

    I will try to explain this again. Alot of people are saying that Mr Hayes is giving out diplomas in Kukishinden Ryu. I think what they actually are saying is the the certificates are To-Shin Do diplomas in the study of the Kihon from the Kukishinden Ryu. They are NOT diplomas in the Kukishinden Ryu.

    Hell tehres people here giving out 4th degree diplonas in Bujinkan, and on those certificates is written the nine schools, Does that mean that they are 4th dan in the 9 schools?

    Now of course we all know they don't but for someone who knows nothing about our martial art and can read a little Japanese it might say something else.

    Dale Seago posted
    I think Dr Hatsumi if he was really bothered has enough time and money to Sue Mr Hayes. But what has he done. Oh yes still sends out grading diplomas. You know next year when Mr Hayes goes to Japan, he will probably sit down with Hatsumi, To-Shin Do will still be here, Mr Hayes will still be doing what he does, and the plaque will probably be back up on the wall rather than in the drawer.

    Strange it has not been thrown away.

    Gary Arthur
  7. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    They say Kukishienden ryu on them. Hence they are. And everyone in Japan who is not associated with the Bujinkan (like fifthchamber) all say that what he does is not acceptable by Japanese standards.

    So, unless Soke sues Steve there will be no change in his behavior. Soke has never sued anyone, but he has tossed out Steve. And look at the very first post in this thread for the real story about the diplomas.

    Strange that it is not on the wall and placed somewhere to show everyone that he has been removed. People like Norm have said that they did not have to notice that the plaque was missing. They were shown it to make perfectly clear that he had been removed. So we see a reason why it did not simply disapear. Soke might want people to see it and know just how he thinks of Steve.
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2006
  8. ChrisMoon

    ChrisMoon Valued Member

    And if it is not? What conclusion will you draw from that?
    Do you find comfort in that? Seriously? If that makes you feel better...
  9. ChrisMoon

    ChrisMoon Valued Member

    I am not in the Bujinkan either and I think it smells. I put Steve in the same category as Michael Finn. Oh yes, I went there.

    I have to go design my next Ebay sale, certificates in the Kihon derived from Toshindo. According to Garth this is kosher and I could really use the cash.
  10. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    Good luck on the sales! :D
  11. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu


    Gary Arthur[/QUOTE]
    You know next year when Mr Hayes goes to Japan, he will probably sit down with Hatsumi, To-Shin Do will still be here, Mr Hayes will still be doing what he does, and the plaque will probably be back up on the wall rather than in the drawer.
    Gary Arthur[/QUOTE]

    This i have got to see, please let us know when he`s going over for his next 2 hour lesson! :bang:
  12. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Kouryuu posted


    So Dr Hatsumi is still giving out diplomas through Mr Hayes for Mr Hayes students.

    Is'nt it funny how the rumour changed from "Mr Hayes is not getting diplomas" to

    "But there for his students" when the Bujinkan guys here found they were wrong and certifiactes were being given out.

    Gary Arthur
  13. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

  14. xen

    xen insanity by design



    so it's not just me that's sat here reading this thread with two pencils up my nose, fighting the urge to headbut the keyboard and make it all go away!

  15. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    I believe it was the Hombu administrator who originally made that statement.
  16. Lord Spooky

    Lord Spooky Banned Banned

    They'll shoot you if you start that sort of thing! :D

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  17. kouryuu

    kouryuu Kouryuu

    Oh that`s right Gary, they admit to being students of Hayes when they put the order through, how stupid of me :bang:
  18. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

  19. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    When the name "ninjutsu" was originally thought up I bet the man who used it wasn't thinking about us, years from then continuing to read a thread whose entire purpose died as long ago as my last brain cell...
    Gary...It's not worth any kind of thought out response to you..You are a true Ninja..Well done..My congratulations to you and to Steve for being the most persevering people on the planet..Even if you are slightly behind him on that front..Still...Wait..Is that Nintai or just sheer "head in sand" -ness...
    I'll let you figure that one out and change the subject to an attack on Tanemura..
  20. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    And last but not least...
    "Boom, Boom, Boom....Booom....Boom, Boom, Boom.....Boooom...I can't remember the next bit...."
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