SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Request

I'm willing to wait as long as it take you, but please provide a scan of the front cover of this book, as well as the inside cover that lists its ISBN number.

I'd like to take a look at this publication, seeing how no one but you seems to know what you are citing.

-ben

 

Theres a very interesting thread on Kutaki about the the Jo to Kukioshinden ryu.

http://www.kutaki.org/modules/newbb...viewmode=flat&order=DESC&type=&mode=0&start=0

In the Genbukan Video that i have the Kuji No Ho is in the Jojutsu section. Maybe there was more taught by Hatsumi than just the Happo Biken?

Ben. I will get the material you require for the Kukishinden Zensho. Interestingly its covered quite a lot on Kutaki, I also seem to remember a post where George Kohler actually mentioned it, although I think I might have confused him somewhat.

Gary Arthur

 

Garth,

This it?

http://budoguten.futagotrader.com/books/

It's at the bottom of the page, last but one item!

 

I'm not understanding what you are trying to get at on the comments above. Can you explain?

Gary,
Even though you gave incorrect citing (nine times) throughout this thread, I knew exactly what book you were referring to, but I wanted you to look for yourself and start using the correct name of the book. You were making claims with the wrong information, so to speak. Frankly, it doesn't help your cause giving wrong information.

Now, to correct you on the information you provided earlier based on this book. You stated, "I'm sure both are the same regardless of te difference in name. The Kukishinden Zukan says Shobukai, the Kiba Koshira book says Shobukyoku..." If you actually had the book you would know that they are not the same. Also, wanted to point out that the book mentions both Shobukai (Actually, the book mentions it as "Kashihara Shobukai.") and Shobukyoku. It appears that the translations that you were using for your Kukishinden Zensho source comes from Todd Schweinhart which was done several years ago. While it is somewhat a good translation, there are a few minor mistakes and not to mention it is not the complete translation of the book. I think it is only one chapter of the book.

I hope next time you will take time to correctly cite your sources to prevent anymore embarrassment to yourself.

 

George Kohler posted

Yes, had a look this post and I began calling it the Zensho and for some reason started calling it the the Zukan. There is a book called the Zukan, but I can only put it down to skipping to the other two thread on Kukan.

Whilst I appreciate that there are two names used I read it slightly different. It appears from my translation that in 1928 it was the Kashiwara Shobukai group that Takamatsu had involvement in. But it then goes on to states that both Takamatsu and Iwami Nangaku wrote to Kuki Takahara regarding the Shobukyoku group.

Really, how many pages is the book. Mine has 42 pages.

Gary Arthur

 

So you stated something about Steve and his training as if it was a fact, now you are ducking getting the real story.

This is not an attack on Steve, but Mr Kohler pointed out that he could not have learned it from Tanemura sensei because the timeline is wrong. The most likely explination is that Steve learned it from a video and then turned around and started teaching it. He never learned if from a teacher. And until we get a statement from Steve, then that is what most of us will believe.

And you will see your post about how you are not willing to make the effort to ask Steve just to answer questions on the internet again.

 

I'm not sure if the book is wrong or if the translation was (I'm not in front of the book). We do know that Takamatsu Sensei established the Kashihara Shobukai in 1950.

http://www.shinjin.co.jp/kuki/hyoho/roots2_e.htm

Look under Takamatsu To*****ugu.

Either way, the reason for me getting involved was because you mentioned Mr. Hayes knowing the Shobukyoku system and Kuji no ho, which was developed and established by Kiba Koshiro. Specifically, it was called the "Shobukyoku Seitei Kata." I can't imagine Takamatsu Sensei teaching these "seitei" kata to Hatsumi Sensei for the simple fact that it is not normal for a student (Kiba Koshiro) to be changing his teacher's (Takamatsu Sensei) forms and then teaching it back to the teacher. It could happen these days, but I'm not sure it would happened during a time were most koryu teachers were conservative with their teachings.

The actual book is about 400 pages, but I can't give you an actual number right now. I don't have the book in front of me since I am at work. The 42 pages, I'm assuming is just the translation? I think that is how many pages my translation has.

Please call me George, Grimjack. My father is still alive and kicking.

 

Grimjack stated

I stated that what it seems that is on the Bojutsu DVDs is the Kuji No Ho. You then want me to find out where Mr Hayes got the training. The question is if it concerns you so much why don't you contact him.

The thing is Grimjack is that you expect me to be the go between, between you and Mr Hayes and get every question answered for you. I wonder if you would keep contacting Hatsumi Sensei everytime I had a question.

Well maybe he learnt it from other Japanese. Is it not possible that this was knocking around in the early days of the Bujinkan before Mr Tanemura left.

Didn't I just know this was coming?

See my earlier post, post 639

This is just garbage.

Grimjack. Have you seen the Genbukan Jojutsu and SHK Bojutsu DVDs. If you do you will realise that what Mr Hayes is teaching is NOT a carbon copy of what is on the Genbukan DVDs. Its obvious to me at least that it was not just copied.

Personally I think its highly probable that Takamatsu may have taught these Kuji No Ho to Hatsumi way before Tanemura left to found the Genbukan.

No that is what you will believe, or put out on the forum as your next attack against Mr Hayes.

Gary Arthur

 

Heres just a thought in regard to my last post. Takamatsu must have learnt the Kuji no ho and passed it on to Kiba Koshira. As it states on the back of the Kukishinden Ryu Bujutsu Kiba Koshira was student of Takamatsu. And did not Hatsumi state that Takamatsu had taught him everything?

Or is that quote from Takamatsu to Hatsumi "I have taught you everything" just wrong.

Gary Arthur

 

No, he didn't because as George Kohler pointed out, that is not the case.

No, read what George Kohler wrote.

So Kiba Koshiro learned bojutsu from Takamatsu sensei. He developed the Kuji no ho after leaving. He did not teach it to Takamatsu sensei anymore than Steve taught his godai system to Hatsumi sensei. Tanemura sensei learned it after he left the Bujinkan. So, unless Steve is willing to tell us where and how he learned it, the most likely explination is that he got the Genbukan video and expanded on it with other stuff.

If you ask Steve for a direct answer, maybe we can work with other theories. But I don't think you want to do that. Instead you want to throw out a whole lot of "maybes" instead of dealing with the truth.

 

Grimjack posted

So what you are saying is that Tanemura stated that he learnt from someone other than Hatsumi. This may indeed be the case. However I think its worth pinting out that although Mr Tanemura spent many years training with Hatsumi Sensei it seems that there is an absence of any mention of the training that Tanemura did with Hatsumi Sensei.

From the Genbukan website

On the time line no mention of Hatsumi receiving any titles from Takamatsu, yet we know he did. But strangely he does mention kimura and Kimbei.

Its like Mr Tanemura is trying to deny he ever learnt anything from Hatsumi Sensei. The only mention is the bit where it says that Hatsumi (Notice he uses Yoshiaki) and states he is a student of ueno.

Also here on his own biography

Well we all know who Mr Tanemura is refering to when he says "another teacher" so why not just say Hatsumi Sensei.

And again in this thread from the Genbukan Discussion area on Gikan Ryu
http://www.genbukan.org/cgi-bin/sit...dID=1&cgThread_threadID=336&cgTopic_topicID=6

No mention at all of Hatsumi inheriting Gikan Ryu, Well there is but it states that according to one person he does not have all of it.

So maybe Mr Tanemura learnt more from Hatsumi than he lets on after all he was with Mr Hatsumi for many many years, even though Mr Tanemura gives no credence to Hatsumi Sensei

Therefore I guess its up to you whether you believe Mr Tanemura learnt all the kuji no ho from some other person other than Hatsumi.

I think even if he did I don't think he will give Hatsumi credit for it. After all as i say there is an absence of Hatsumi from the Tanemura website.

Or maybe he learnt it directly from Takamatsu. After all Mr Hatsumi says that Tanemura only trained with Takamatsu once. But Tanemura I believe has certainly stated otherwise. He has even remarked to me personally that he spent more time training with Takamatsu than that.

So did Hatsumi teach Tanemura Kuji No Ho. I think even if he did, i don't think that tanemura will admit to it. After all the Kuji No Ho is a major part of the Genbukan Jojutsu. Is he going to tell his students that he learnt it from Hatsumi?

Gary Arthur

 

Garth,

Tanemura Sensei did not learn the Shobukyoku kata (Kuji no ho, Kutsu no ho, ect.) from Hatsumi Sensei. He started learning these kata from Sato Kinbei Sensei just after Tanemura Sensei left the Bujinkan.

When John Lindsey saw an adverticement for Richard Van Donk's videos showing these "Jo" kata (kuji no ho and Kutsu no ho) he asked Tanemura Sensei if the Bujinkan had these. Tanemura Sensei replied (me paraphrasing) that the Shobukyoku Seitei Kata was not part of the Bujinkan and that it is very disrespectful to Hatsumi Sensei since Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu already had very good "Jo" kata and that one doesn't need to "add" Seitei kata to a already good ryuha. I believe John Lindsey posted this on Ninpo-L and the old E-Budo (before the first big crash).

 

George Kohler posted

So that begs the question then where Richard Van Donk got them from?

Did he learn them from a Genbukan DVD?

Gary Arthur

 

Ha, found my notes on this. Here is what was said

 

The Genbukan didn't have DVD's back in the 90's.

 

George Kohler posted

That does not mean of course that Hatsumi does not know it, it just remains not part of what the Bujinkan teach.

From Genbukan website

So Tanemura knew Sato Kinbei whilst training with Hatsumi.

And if as the Genbukan site Myoja states that Tanemura was training with Takamatsu. Could not Takamatsu have taught Tanemura and then passed it onto Mr Hayes?

Gary Arthur

 

Garth,

Quit changing the subject. Where did Mr. Hayes learn the Shobukyoku system?

In the book Hiden Togakure-ryu by Hatsumi Sensei, he and some of the Shihan in the early 60's went on a Musha Shugyo. They went and trained with a lot of people, including Sato Kinbei Sensei. I think this is where Tanemura Sensei met Sato Kinbei Sensei for the first time.

 

In only one day?

 

George Kohler posted

Easy answer as i pointed out before. I don't know, But I don't think he learnt it from a Video. Why don't you e mail Mr Hayes yourself. I am not an expert on Stephen K Hayes.

Dale Seago posted

Yes but I think Tanemura claims to have studied with Takamatsu for more than one day.

Gary Arthur

 

This is incorrect.

Tanemura Sensei is very clear about this. In Japan not only was he VERY open about Hatsumi Who he called Hatsumi Sensei! But also that he trained with Takamatsu ONE day like the others.


So where are you going with this?