SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by kouryuu, Oct 18, 2006.

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  1. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    Garth,

    Still waiting on the "Kukishinden Zukan" questions.
     
  2. George Kohler

    George Kohler Valued Member

    Well, since you have stated that Mr. Hayes is quite happy with you answering people's questions on MAP, I am going to assume that you have been communicating with your teacher about this whole "Bujinkan/SKH" affair. If you have been communicating with him then you should have already questioned him on who he learned the Shobukyoku system from.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showpost.php?p=1011378&postcount=546
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2006
  3. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    In case any of you care to follow up on that, his e-mail is:

    <If you have to post something in such a way that you circumvent MAP filters then you shouldn't really be posting, don't do it again - Spooky>
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 10, 2006
  4. garth

    garth Valued Member

    George Kohler posted
    To be honest I don't think Mr Hayes is too interested in what happens on the forums, and is most certainly not really interested in whether people doubt where he got the Shobkyoku stuff from.

    Now I know that theres is no doubt going to be a rumour that Mr Hayes learnt it from the Genbukan DVDs/Video.

    Lets put this into perspective beforehand.

    My copy of the Genbukan Kukishinden Ryu Jojutsu tape is approx 1 hour long. It includes the kihon (Furi Kata) and the Kuji (9 techniques) and (Kutsu (9 techniques) and three other techniques.

    Now as you can imagine because theres a lot of techniques these techniques are really just covered in that one hour with no real explaination.

    Now the SKH DVDs are 4 DVDs (Approx 4 hours or more) just covering nine techniques and Mr Hayes goes into great detail about exactly how they were performed. So if Mr Hayes copied the techniques from the Taneura DVD/Video then he sure got a lot of stuff out of it.

    So did Mr Hayes learn the techniques from the Tanemura DVD/Video? I doubt it simply because there is much much more material than whats in the Genbukan DVD.

    And for anyone wanting to take a look at the DVDs one will see that the patterns although similar (and I mean similar enough to identify what they are) but they are not quite the same.

    So please until people have seen both sets of DVDs and compared lets not have any rumours about Mr Hayes learning it from a video.

    Gary Arthur
     
  5. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    but then Tanemura probalby put his out as a training companion to compliment the knowledge of the techniques for 1 hour whereas Hayes would have done an instructional DVD to flog for home study for 4 hours.
     
  6. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Keikai posted
    Yes but until you have seen the DVDs, really your comment isn't up to much, unless of course you believe that the Kukishinden Shobukyoku Gata can effectively be taught in just one hour.


    Gary Arthur
     
  7. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    but then should it be taught via DVD in just an hour, like i said Tanemura's was probably a guide where Hayes would be more like an actual instructional video.
     
  8. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Keikai posted
    Then I am sure you will agree thats good. Better to have in depth instruction than some moves on a tape that people have no idea how to perform properly.

    My apologise if I came over a little scathing on your last comment, i though you were saying that it was "Another money making scheme"

    Gary Arthur
     
  9. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    would i say that???? :Angel:
     
  10. Senban

    Senban Banned Banned

    Okay, let's try and take this in a slightly more productive direction. :bang:

    Keikai said:-
    I have a virtually complete set of Tanemura-san's old VHS tapes and also some of the more recent ones.

    I have a reasonable collection of SKH's VHS tapes and DVDs going as far back as the old "Ninja Night Warrior" tapes and as up to date as the recently released "Gyokko Ryu Jo Ryaku no Maki" set. (Hey, I like 'em - sue me!).

    Now let's compare the two.

    Tanemura-san's tapes are very much a record of the formal kata, much like a video "densho" if you like. I think that's great by the way. They don't attempt to teach the material per se beyond a few basic points.

    SKH's DVDs are not so much a record of the formal kata as an exploration of the points within those kata with ideas on how you can make the various elements of the kata work for you. I think that this is also great.

    Now everyone keeps chunnering endlessly on about "instructional DVDs" and bluntly, it's BS. The SKH DVDs are no more instructional than a seminar video. If I host a seminar and video tape it, often other people will get copies. They weren't there at that training but they watch the recording, listen to the INSTRUCTION by the teacher and thus learn stuff which they get to try out in their own classes or whatever. This is EXACTLY what the SKH DVDs are like! The only ones that even come close to "instructional" are the Classical Kihon DVDs and that makes perfect sense to me.

    So can someone please tell me what the difference is, if any, between one of SKH's Classical DVDs (other than the Kihon DVDs) and a seminar video where the instructor is showing kata and explaining various points to the audience?

    And no, the difference is NOT because you can't earn grades from a seminar video but you can from an SKH DVD because that's BS too. You can only earn certificates in the Kihon by video testing. Everything else has to be done in person (so I'm told).

    And please try to avoid making value judgements based upon personalities. Stick to debating the actual question as it stands.
     
  11. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    So where did Steve learn it from?

    With the way you try to complain about internet rumours and hearsay whenever someone passes along something from Soke, your willingness to state as a fact that Steve learned and teaches the Shobukyoku stuff while not being able to give any sort of reference is rather hypocritical.

    What tack are you going to take this time? Are you going to say that if Steve says he learned it that it is not his place to prove it under UK law, but for other people to disprove it? Or are you going to say that those that make claims are the ones with the responsibility to prove them?

    So, where did he learn them from if you are so certain he did not learn them from a video?

    Someone pass me the popcorn please.
     
  12. Victoria

    Victoria Pretzel In Training

    *stares into an empty bowl*
     
  13. JibranK

    JibranK Valued Member

    I'm sorry, I did not know about the filters. I posted the e-mail like that because if I wrote it outright, it would be picked up by spamming software. I write with the parenthetical @ symbol to prevent an accidental volley of spam to Mr. Hayes.
     
  14. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Grimjack posted
    Well just maybe he learnt it in Japan from the Japanese. As I said I do not have a crystal ball, and I am not going to contact Mr Hayes just to answer your questions here on the internet.

    You know how to contact him. Why not e mail yourself?

    Gary Arthur
     
  15. Big Will

    Big Will NinpƓ Ikkan

    I'm very curious to know about it as well :)
     
  16. garth

    garth Valued Member

    The Zukan is the Zensho

    Gary Arthur
     
  17. Easternstorm

    Easternstorm Valued Member

    MWD ANDY WROTE

    "And no, the difference is NOT because you can't earn grades from a seminar video but you can from an SKH DVD because that's BS too. You can only earn certificates in the Kihon by video testing. Everything else has to be done in person (so I'm told)."

    AFAIK Mr Hayes will not accept video testing from UK students.
    This is for the US students because of the geographical size of the country.
    UK students would have to test in person before Mr Hayes for Kihon ranking at the UK tai kai.
     
  18. Keikai

    Keikai Banned Banned

    hey let rip off the british!!!! :eek:
     
  19. Easternstorm

    Easternstorm Valued Member

    Why not ! Everyone else does.
     
  20. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Keikai posted
    From what i understand apart from the Yellow Belt, most people testing for Blue Belt and above in the UK and the US are grading in front of Mr Hayes or their representative instructors.

    Unlike other grade by mail courses where one can obtain Classical grades by mail, even black belt, Mr Hayes makes a big thing about it on his DVDs that one cannot test for the classical martial arts in this way. He states that the techniques are so specialised that the tests have to be performed in front of a qualified examiner.

    So just to reiterate only To-Shin Do grades are graded by mail, and as i said it seems from what I have heard that really only yellow belt, without visiting the hombu or a qualified examiner/instructor.

    Gary Arthur
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2006
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