SKH Quest & Hatsumi's Bujinkan

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu Resources' started by kouryuu, Oct 18, 2006.

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  1. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Whether or not Ohashi believes the primary issue is that Hayes is a Very Naughty Man is irrelevant to the question of the Bujinkan certificates, which appears to have been answered.

    So the complete answer is that Hayes is apparently a Very Naughty Man who gets Bujinkan certificates for his students.
     
  2. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Eyebeams posted

    Strange that isnt it. He's apparently a very naughty man according to Mr Ohashi yet at the same time Dr Hatsumi is still passing on certificates to him.

    Immolation wrote
    You make it sound like I added words which of course I did not. I put down what was relevant in Mr Ohashis thread. Remember Grimjack wrote

    This was post 4 of this thread which kind of makes Fire and Steel point also wrong when he writes

    Yes even on post 1 it was about grades.

    Isn't it funny that now various people have been proven wrong the Bujinkan guys join shoulders and attack one that is not your own. I guess its true when xen writes

    And I guess when that shared purpose is threatened people people go on the defensive by trying to disatance themselves from the truth and find other points not relevant to the point to counter attack with.

    Now I have said what needs to be said. I think any unbiased person looking at this thread will see that Mr Hayes has been vindicated against the lies that Grimjack and Ben Cole have started. In my mind I am quite happy that the truth has been found in this issue and in regard to this issue I shall let it rest at that satisfied in the fact that the truth has been found out, i.e that Mr Hayes does indeed still receive Bujinkan Grades from Dr Hatsumi.

    Gary Arthur
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2006
  3. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member


    Oi, stop quote me in things i did not say that was eyebeams post not mine, go and edit it.
     
  4. garth

    garth Valued Member

    Saru posted
    My apologies. see edit.

    Gary Arthur
     
  5. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    The Cobbled Streets Of Noda

    No Bujinkan members who are training with him MAY be still getting grades.


    No Gary this thread was split from another so post #1 was just where it was split from ! The Thread IS titled SKH QUEST & Hatsumi's Bujinkan.
    You and Grimjack were asked by the Mod to take your grade rant to another thread You chose to continue it here


    Yes we have noticed that you always use this tactic Gary some what like Mr Hayes tactic of everything being internet rumors Opps Oh you use that one as well now don't you :D

    Yes I am sure everyone has heard your rhetoric ! You keep repeating it often enough despite the facts <<<<< Is that so you can convince yourself or others Gary ???? :D
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2006
  6. lalom

    lalom Valued Member

    Thank you Garth. The clarity on truth now really is sad. Those who've spent so much time accusing Mr. Hayes of lying now will have to either silence themselves or try and search for times when you didn't put a "dot" on your "i"s or how you mispelled a word... Sad.
     
  7. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    Have you bothered reading this thread? otherwise how can you come to that conclusion.

    Garth got caught out selecting quotes from the email to back his story up.

    He took the text out of its context. When i recieved a email from Steve i had the integrity to post it in its entire unedited form.

    What is sad that even when reading that email you fail to see whats written in front of you.

    In fact what do you read from that e-mail or is the screen blank


    *** knocks on tube ***

    :bang:
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2006
  8. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    I am curious where I have called Mr. Hayes a liar about receiving certificates, which is the point of contention you are highlighting.

    I don't recall making such an assertion. If you could provide a link to my post before claiming that I am "wrong," I'd appreciate it. :)

    In contrast, I *HAVE MADE* the assertion that Hayes has lied about his training. ;) And we can all look forward to the interview in Spring once I'm done with my job search. That's when Gary will resign from Quest, as per his promise.

    -ben
     
  9. whiteshadow711j

    whiteshadow711j Hiding in the Shadows

    After reading this, and reading the whole reply from Mr Ohashi, I think Mr. Hayes needs to go to japan, speak to Soke Hatsumi, make concessions to whatever Soke wants and rejoin the Bujinkan :Angel: .

    In my opinion this is the best thing Mr. hayes can do, but I really dont think he is going to do this :bang: .

    I guess we will wait and see as it looks like the ball is in Mr. Hayes court... :eek:
     
  10. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Your attempts to try to make me look like I am not experienced and knowlegeable won't work.

    Here is the thread you are talking about.

    http://www.martialartsplanet.com/forums/showthread.php?t=59009

    Here is my my quote from that thread.

    Now, I can't understand how anyone with any brains or honesty could read the above and think that I had never heard of the Tenchijin. I have to think that you are trying to make me sound like I am not very knowlegeable and make yourself sound superior by contrast. It is kind of the one upmanship that you seem to keep playing. Every time you get caught at it, you apologize and a few days later start again.

    Here is an interesting quote from another board.

    Oops! :eek: So Garth is trying to make it sound like Steve is still in Soke's good graces based on the fact that he still gets grades for his students. It really is not a seperate issue as he is now saying in this thread.

    If Garth wants to use Ohashi-san as a source for saying that Steve gets grades from Japan, then he has to acknowledge that he is a good source and not a rumour monger. But if Ohashi san is a good source, then all the stuff that he has been relaying about what Soke said about Steve is valid as well. That is why he tried to edit out the bad bits in his deception attempt. If he wants to engage in charecter assassination against others like me for telling the truth, he can bet that his own failings will be remembered.
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2006
  11. bencole

    bencole Valued Member

    Yes, Hayes may order grades for his students because he understands too little of Japanese budo to know that he needs to commit (legal and non-lethal) "seppuku" in the Bujinkan. :rolleyes:

    To go along with Hayes' supposed "firsts," we now can add an actual confirmed one: "First foreigner to upset Soke so much that he had his judan plaque removed from the Hombu dojo wall." ;)

    Joji's email supports my long-held assertion that Hayes knows little about Soke's budo, Japanese culture as a whole, or how one fulfills the expectation of the group and Soke.

    If Stephen really understood Soke's heart, he would be a man and officially resign from the Bujinkan. Instead, he and his agents make excuses about the circumstances of the plaque's removal, hold up trappings of legitimacy (i.e., "we still get certificates") to create clouds of smoke, and generally hide theirs heads in the sand.

    To have a Japanese administrator at Hombu confirm my expectations of what Hayes *SHOULD DO* has reaffirmed by belief that Hayes has missed more than one Budo boat.

    This is not surprising given his limited time there, his limited Japanese knowledge, and his willingness to go against Japanese budo norms (for example, by providing licenses in Ryuha in which he does not hold menkyo kaiden). It all comes together quite nicely, don't you think?

    Moreover, to actually have one of his agents (i.e., Garth) purposely delete material from an email "because it wasn't relevant" just shows how little Stephen has passed on to members of Quest about the heart of Japanese budo and what the art entails. The omission reflects either (1) malicious intent (which I want to doubt) or (2) blatant ignorance of Japanese budo (which goes along with my assessment of Hayes' understanding). The latter is more believable.

    Like I said in other threads, watch the TV series "Shinsengumi." Then you know *EXACTLY* what Stephen should do and how we all are to act in this Japanese Budo world.

    -ben
     
  12. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Nah, it was irrelevant. Everybody knows the Bujinkan doesn't like Stephen Hayes. The matter garth was dealing with was whether or not the Bujinkan still sent rankings. They do.
     
  13. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Read my post again. Garth and Steve have been trying to say that because Soke still sends out rank to Steve that they can't be on bad terms.

    Take a look at how Steve tries to spin things.

    http://www.skhquest.com/densho.asp

    Certainly Steve seems to be saying that because he gets rank from Soke he must still be 'part of the team.'
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  14. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Oh I'm sure that there's a problem between Hatsumi and Hayes. Interestingly, the situation also means it isn't a hamon. Despite others' vague statements to the contrary, a hamon severs students from the line of teaching.
     
  15. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Hasn't it been made fairly clear that Hatsumi doesn't issue Hamon as such? He just takes your name down from the board and leaves it at that...It seems to be Mr. Ohashis implication that the onus is on the Student to realise just how bad this act is and what it means..A very Japanese way of looking at it all funnily enough..That Hayes hasn't picked it up yet (Or rather, admitted it publicly) is a sign of a lack of sensitivity to this issue one could argue.
    I also noticed that Garth had persisted with the notion that Hatsumi travelled further to train with Takamatsu than Hayes did with Hatsumi..Still not quite true..Chiba to Nara is still a lot closer than North Kyushu to Chiba...The map of Japan hasn't changed considerably in the years that passed..
    Regards.
     
  16. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    Actually, a hamon is a pretty unambiguous thing. The iemoto system that koryu is based on was created to regulate trade skills. When you issue a hamon you're saying that such and such a person is not representative of the particular tradition, be it carpentry or martial arts. In the past it actually had legal standing.
     
  17. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Do they just and you would know this how ? And can provide Proof of such where ?
    NOWHERE has any PROOF been given. Even Ohashi San's Email did not prove anything about GRADES one way or the other . It said it is OK even if they are because they are for STUDENTS (that are BUJINKAN MEMBERS) that have nothing (no fault) to do with the ISSUE !!!!!!!
    The package of Grades Mr Hayes talks about (are they cobbled ? ) could well have been ordered months before and paid for so therefore would have been sent out to be issued to the student that they belong to .
    I personally could not care less about grades what annoys me is this constant twisting and blatant manipulation of the facts by both Mr Hayes and Garth and their need to blame others to distract from their own actions.

    THESE ARE THE REAL QUESTIONS.
    (1) Why would Mr Hayes want to continue in the Bujinkan ?
    When he has been disrespectful to his teacher by not training with him for YEARS other than a flying photo Op visits and Blog bragging rights about those visits when put under enough public pressure by inquiries by students training with him as to his current status and links to training in Japan. Setting himself up as the self proclaimed Anshu of his own style but wanting to pretend to still have current links to Soke and training in Japan.

    (Answer ^) Being able to have your cake and eat it to appeals to more students = larger student base = Jigoku no sata mo kane shidai !

    Why would any students of Mr Hayes still want to be graded in the Bujinkan When they have Mr Hayes modern style created for todays modern world ?

    (Answer) They have been brought up in the world as Martial consumers where they think they have some right to pick and choose what they learn and when and are willing to follow any teacher that will pander to this need but still want to have this paper link to the real world of Budo just in case they are missing out on something , mistakenly thinking this make them somehow legit in their own eyes as Martial consumers.
     
  18. fire&steel

    fire&steel Valued Member

    Could that be simply because Mr Hayes has never been thought of as important enough to be given Hamon , just another run of the mill student who has decided he wants to go his own way ? That vague statement you refer to came directly from Hatsumi sensie :D

    Would you like to enlighten us as to your expertise and experience in the world of Japanese Budo Eyebeams or you just happy to sit back and throw out your one liners ?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  19. fifthchamber

    fifthchamber Valued Member

    Actually, I know very well what a Hamon is and what it means..But thanks for the lesson...
    My point was, and still is that Hatsumi doesn't seem to issue Hamon..Whatever may have been done before in the schools he trains in..And in the others here in Japan..He doesn't issue them..You could wrangle with him about the why's and wherefore's of using that system..But it doesn't change the fact that he doesn't issue Hamon..He will take your name off the board of rank holders however..And let you work the rest out...If you choose to...
    Please, don't lecture me on this culture..
    Regards.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2006
  20. eyebeams

    eyebeams New Member

    And I'm saying that's not how hamon actually works. I'm sure Hatsumi is displeased with Hayes because Hayes issued license in one of the two bugei in which Hatsumi holds a non-controversial license.

    Hatsumi probably doesn't want another Manaka or Tanemura. He already made a mistake by granting them menkyo, which are the only grades actually worth anything when it comes to determining legitimacy and succession. If Hayes starts claiming such things for himself it would obviously need to stop.

    I'm sure one could invent all kinds of comforting justofications, but they ring about as hollow as claims that Hayes and Hatsumi are best buddies.

    Hayes, maybe. As for the rest of this interesting but disappointing spectacle, I'd say the worth of all participants is about equal. Make of that what you will.

    You appear to be under the mistaken impression that you get to set the topic for others.

    I haven't seen anything that indicates he's interested in continuing in the Bujinkan. He's interested in some sort of relationship with Hatsumi, but that's not the same thing. Whats interesting is that getting the certs means that he's no longer a member of the Bujinkan but still heads its almost moribund Kasumi-an branch, which is an extremely weird situation.

    That would probably because they think ninjas and Japanese things are cool -- just like the rest of the Bujinkan.

    The real world of budo is what you do when somebody's wants to hurt you and you don't want them to. The mode of preparation for that is merely technique within a cultural structure. If the cultural structure is more important to you, then you don't really care about budo. You care about affectations.
     
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