Perhaps you could try to answer the question. Let me rephrase the question in case you didn't understand it. Two fighters are both going to throw a punch. They both move towards each other and fire off their punches at the same time. One punch is more powerful while the other arrives a fraction of a second before the other. Both are so close in speed that they are going to connect and that neither fighter can avoid or block. In other words, both people are going to get hit with the full brunt of the blow. Which would you rather be, the one who threw the slightly faster punch or the more powerful punch? Both are going to get hit.
I watched the videos. I really can't see the bobbing in the videos because they are too small and the quality is not that good. Obviously, it was a tournament and that is expected since it wasn't set up to be a high quality video. When I watch my instructor or the more senior students, they have a drop. It just isn't an exaggerated drop. When I took karate years ago, the instructor tried to get everyone to stay pretty much perfectly level as they went through. My current instructor tries to get us to go for a small drop. Sorry, I was talking about the sparring photos in a line that reference diagram 2. Actually, I didn't say that. I said "Add in that the colored belt does an extremely exaggerated bobbing motion versus someone that you can't really tell if their feet have moved at all and you would expect the black belt to get the punch off first." The black belt comment was just to identify which person I was talking about in the photo. Well yes. If someone is faster or responds more quickly, that certainly helps. But the question is if all else was equal would the sine wave slow the person down that much? In the photos, there were several other problems that would have slowed the person down without sine wave being used at all. I am not accusing you of doing anything wrong. I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. But to really discuss the issue, it helps to have a good understanding of what the demonstration is. Were these both your students? How did you determine which one to do the sine wave? Did the person have much experience using sine wave? I assume that you don't teach sine wave. Would that be wrong? Perhaps my instructor is teaching it wrong. But it certainly doesn't take more than a fraction of a second to drop about an inch as you make impact. Likewise, I don't see too many people using sitting stances in sparring. Once again, maybe it is that you are seeing people do extremely exaggerated motions, but that is not what we are being taught by our instructor as sine wave. Perhaps he pretty much agrees with you and teaches a quite modified form of it. I don't know. But I have never seen anyone try to go on their tip toes as they move in for a punch like is in the third frame of that fight sequence.
The videos show it well enough, check the Yul-Guk v Hwa-Rang one and you can see a marked speed difference. And the Hwa-Rang v Choong-Moo one shows the drop/rise/drop reasonibly clearly as they start to travel back on themselves. Drop before or drop after, originally in sine-wave there was no drop before Original Sine wave motion -- no drop beforehand Sorry, just re-read it - I getcha now Photos or not, it still remains that all things being equal the orginal sine-wave or non-sine-wave would hit first Well you did say "Diagram 2, it seems, is custom designed to prove a point but fails to do because of how it is set up." - which it wasnt! Okay, but its kinda simple, two motions one up, then one down is faster than 3 motions one down, one up and one down again!!! The photos are simply there to help illustrate the text not seal it tight as the text does that pretty well by itself. Yes They chose Yes - enough yes, that would be wrong as I teach the *original* version and in its proper context Whom is your instructor and what org is he with (if any) - the reason i ask is that a lot or orgs dictate how it should be done! It does to drop/rise and drop again - which is what the article refered to and why i made the disctinction on my previous post when i refered to he original sine wave as now being called natural motion by some. Well the people were directly under a major authority in TKD! Again, I think now the 'change' trend has died off, groups and instructors are exxagerating it less, but often it stll to much. many pioneers pre-sinewave (being named) dropped into their movements - this was natural and is really the basis or sine wave, anything more is unnatural and slow, no matter how much power it developes Would be interesting to see/find out I think he was trying to show the reaction to getting hit whilst rising up to drop again - perhaps he tried a bit too hard LOL - though people do actually exaggerate that much in their patterns as well. Again though, you a looking at the photos to much when its the text you should be disgreeing with! Stuart
The pictures that you posted in this post is pretty much what we do. I thought you wanted me to agree with the text! As I said, I am merely pointing out some issues with the presentation. I am not even necessarily disagreeing with your assessment at this point. It sounds like you teach your students to do pretty much what is in that old photo series you posted here. If so, that is pretty much what we are taught. Hence where I think the presentation is where you need a slight refinement.
Just to add my two cents, a pattern as defined by General Choi, is a representation of a technique for self defence. If you find that your technique is NOT applicable in self defence, than logically your technique is WRONG. I myself disagree with the exaggeration of sine wave as it is represented by many instructors. Luckily I have an oldschool instructor who teaches us good tkd.
Then you are arguing on the wrong side of the fence! :woo: This was one reason I asked whom your instructor/org were as certain big orgs do it different ways so its pretty easy to identify which is which. I dont mind if people agree or disagree with it. If you had read it correctly you would have seen it refered to the over-exaggerated version of sine-wave as opposed to the original version though!! Like I said, the photos were to try to help illustrate the text, which is a sound opinion on how it was/is being performed and how it relates to patterns as a tool for self defence. Stuart
Ah the sine wave controversy. I spent a lot of time on the other side of the fence until someone on this very forum gave me a nice simple answer I could live with. They said that it is used to fix your stance. makes you more solid on the ground as you have effectively grounded yourself by accelerating towards ground, and then striking. And the more I looked at it, I found that I actually did do it even in MT. It's very subtle, but there is actually a slight SW to slam my weight into the ground and set me up for a good hard grounded strike. I also use hip twist, I am after all originally a Karate-ka. So, I exagerrate it in Patterns, isnt that what patterns are for?
Except Taiji physical concepts aren't similar to sine wave. They are more similar to hip twist, except they would involve rotating in axis around the entire spine, not just the hip.
Me, EternalRage, and MaverickZ all posting in one thread here. It brings a tear to my eye. Now we just need to get Mav to join Warrior-Scholar.
Even if you aren't punching in a straight line, your sine wave makes the added force from the redistribution of mass move in a straight line - straight into the ground. The only merit I would see in this is what Lithanwif stated - the dropping of the mass lowers the center of gravity so that it feels more stable when you hit, but added power/force? I don't think so. A punch has definitely more horizontal movement than vertical so it makes more sense to add rotational acceleration rather than gravitational. Have you ever played tennis? Generally in tennis, unless you are smacking a lob high into the air, the trajectory you want to put on a tennis ball is more horizontal than vertical. The French Open is on this week, watch the pros, you won't see a single sine wave. But you will see alot of hip torque. I think the only time I've ever used a sine wave like motion intentionally to gain power is in the ground and pound.
In short.. no! Your reasoning on sine-wave is not bad, and one Ive not heard before, though it doesnt actually make a difference to the original posts that were anti the *new* sine wave. Stuart
I use to use it a lot when I break danced.. oooh the snake Seriously though, with regards to the Tai-Chi point, there was a story I heard in a certain Korean circle that Gen Choi was hanging (!) with a Tai chi instructor around the same time the sine-wave was pushed more forcefully and change to the new type (down/up/down). I cant confirm anything as thats all I heard and cant really comment on the Tai Chi similarities as I dont know that much in-depth about thow they move, though Madmonk I think has stated its different! Stuart
Together, we shall conquer the Korean Karate world. Dude, we get one more person, and we could call ourselves the Four Horsemen. I call dibs on Death though.
Stuart, Well, the TKD system I train in is Moodukkwan based. Remember that Hwang Kee did reputedly receive training in Taiji. I've also cross-trained a bit in Taiji, though informally. Up and down motion was not taught at all, as it would go against the principle of rooting. What was taught was rotation of the whole body around the spine. This was in-line with what my MDK instructor taught.
Well, i have to admit, of the Tai Chi Ive seen, ive not seen anything similar to the sine-wave. Though Ive heard it from the source I mentioned and some have commented elseware on the similarities. You`d know better than I if you`ve trained in it or if its part of your system. As an aside, whats the differences between Moo Duk Kwan and Oh do kwan tkd? (I know little of Moo Duk Kwan) Stuart
The thing I don't get about sine wave is, if you are dropping down in order to add power, why do you need to go down again as you begin the next move. This gives a sequence of down up down | down up down | down up down. Surely it would be quicker and easier to just go | up down | up down |. Anyway I think that out of the 2 hip twist adds more power and is definately quicker to use.
