Simon's Sparring Technique Series Vol. 1

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Discussion' started by Simon, Oct 21, 2012.

  1. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    Excellent, that is exactly why the thread was created.

    There are some masssive gaps in my attacks. My lead hand drops after punching, my kicks look weak, there is some overbalancing and so on.
    What you have to bear in mind is that these are not technique instructional videos, they are designed to give the beginner/intermediate sparrer some ideas on how to enter.

    Andy is giving me his centre because we are demonstrating a move. If Andy had defended as he normally would it would have sent me in a teaching direction I didn't want to go.

    The other thing to bear in mind is the 5 ways of attack are designed to make you give away your cente. The feint then trap is a perfect example.

    I think you're reading too much into the Wing Chun comparisons. I made the WC reference because that is what most people are familiar with.
    I don't have any rules in my sparring (common sense aside), but I am making a video for those who do Karate, TKD, Kung Fu and so on. It is not a WC trapping video.
    There is movement back and forth and not all kicks may be in the range at which you do them, but I wnated to make it clear to someone outside of my art what is possible. Again it is the principle I want to get across, not a specific technique.

    It isn't wrong in the contect in which I used it. Sure Andy could roll out with his elbow, but my point was that he couldn't hit me with it at that distance.
    Again just because it is a video on trapping, it isn't a WC trapping hands video.
    Trapping is also immobilisation in this video. That may be a basic parry and punch from another art.

    I don't question your replies and they all apply at certain times, but what one person can make work, another can't.
    Nothing is wrong; this is where many go wrong in the martial arts. It just may not fit against a certain opponent, or against a certain style.

    I absolutely appreciate the comments and the chance to add some explanation.
     
  2. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    That last video was perfect man. During sparring we trap each other quite often to get a punch in without retaliation, and that feint then trap thing is brilliant to get off the trap before the other guy.

    I've been busy with exams the last few weeks though, so I haven't had much time to practice the stuff from the other videos. But you can count on it that I will use these videos to practice my sparring when I've got more time and braincells to spare. So by all means, don't stop sharing. :D
     
  3. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    My point is that you said wing chun trapping doesn't occur at this range (which it does), and then showed a range where traps finish not where they start. I know it's not a wing chun video but my point is that you're saying "x is wing chun" when it's not.

    Unless the powers that be gifted you with disproportionately long legs we're all going to straight kick at the same range.
    And as far as principles you missed many of the most important ones:
    1. Chase the body not the hands - for examples when he deflects your punch so far he gives you the half body angle and there's no need to trap, you can just march in
    2. Traps are either indoor or outdoor - for example indoor pak da versus outdoor pak da
    3. Cutting the angle from outside and taking half the body is superior to trapping on the inside or staying square with the opponent
    4. Trapping at the elbow is superior to trapping at the wrist



    No Simon. What I mean is by trapping at the wrist you're leaving his elbow free. With that elbow free he can step forward, fold straight over the top, use his elbow to trap yours, and hit you. That's why trapping at the elbow is better than trapping at the wrist.

    We don't "trap hands." Thinking like that leads to chasing hands. We just use techniques which allows to enter on the inner gate or to take half the body. If we have to we trap but it is not the goal. That would be chasing hands.

    My point here is that you made a mistake in saying he can't use the elbow and that in the part where you say "wing chun works from here" you're wrong and misrepresenting.
     
  4. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I do think you are trying to turn this into a style war Sketco and it is strange how you haven't made comment on the other videos.

    What you have to realise is that I don't to WC. I teach my own style, which takes trapping from JKD, FMA and CMA.
    I also think you are trying to label things a little too much. Your traps may start at A and finish at B, but I find that to limiting.

    The video was unscripted and the WC reference wasn't planned, so to read too much into the reference is mistaken.
    There are lots of techniques superior to the ones shown. Again you are missing the point of the video series.
    We are not teaching techniques (yet), we are giving concepts for those people who have started to spar, but are finding it difficult to break down an opponent.

    FMA is very different to CMA. I don't believe a hand is so easily trapped. As soon as someone touches my arm it becomes live. It should switch on, not give up because it is trapped.

    Possibly, but you use the word "can", not "will. Remember sometimes you get the bear, sometimes the bear gets you.
    You could watch any training video and say, "I could have done this or that". It's not quite the same close up and personal though.

    How much in the way of trapping do you actulally see outside of WC sparring. Not much at all is it. It's not easy to trap a boxer or anyone else well versed in punching. Could you trap a Thai boxer for example?

    This is why I have done things at various ranges. I have had to cater for all styles and therefore all ranges. It is not a WC video.

    I'm not misrepresenting at all. You now sound like someone from the Kuk Sool or Ninjutsu forum.
    Nowhere was WC talked down and it was a throw away comment in an unscripted video.

    I'm glad that you found a technique you did like. I'm surprised WC doesn't have feints. How do you expect you would deal with someone who was well trained in feinting.
     
  5. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    This is getting a little nit-picky!

    It should come with a disclaimer: "These videos are script free and subject to a possible incorrect reference in an attempt to familiarize the viewer with a particular style they may train in. Please keep in mind that any time you counter an attack, deflect an attack with intent to counter, or just attack in general you open yourself for an attack as well. This is unavoidable. So be quick, be accurate, and train the basics A LOT so you don't get hit back as much."

    I enjoyed this last video quite a bit. I'm going to try some variations of it I think will work with boxing tonight if some people show up to spar. Very clear and very precise in the message! The videos are definitely on the "you can learn something" quality and don't go into a million different things based off of some basic concepts.

    Thanks a ton for posting them.
     
  6. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Why am I reminded of the phrase "No plan ever survives contact with the enemy" whenever trapping is involved?

    Don't concentrate on the finger and all that......

    Awesome vids Simon
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  7. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    In TKD sparring, If my opponent and I are in open stance and he throws a slow back leg turning kick it's an excellent opportunity to interrupt with a spinning back kick, especially if I've prepared for it with a sneaky movement of my hips in advance.

    What if he doesn't do a back leg turning kick?

    Something different will happen.

    What if you're too slow?

    Something different will happen.

    What if you're sparring under different rules?

    Something different will happen.

    Does any of that change the principles being discussed of angles, interruption, timing and counter attack?

    No.

    Simon's video sets out to make a few simple points and does so very clearly. To attempt to dissect it based on other arguments is to miss the points being explained.

    Mitch
     
  8. Zabrus

    Zabrus Valued Member

    Nice series. Lots of ideas for when I start sparring seriously in a month or so.

    Had never thought of the punch to leg, for example!
     
  9. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    We don't really have to. The same reason wing chun doesn't have feints and doesn't really deal with them is the same reason it doesn't really have any footwork for going backward. The proper wing chun footwork is called chute bo which translates to 'rapid stepping.' Essentially it is for charging in at your opponent at high speed while still being able to angle to take the half body from the opponent's outer gate. It's too rapid to even think of feinting and there's no really reason to deal with feinting because of the simultaneous and efficient work of both hands there will always be one hand attacking on the centerline. Even if he feints one hand attacks while the other deflects and once you realize the attack isn't genuine the hand replaces on the center line.





    Because I watched them and have no issue with the content.

    The comment was in error. That's all.

    Yeah I get that it's a short video and even explaining the most basic concepts is kind of difficult with such limited time.

    That's something we agree on. It seems fairly obvious. Not sure the point you're trying to make.

    And you used the word "can't." I'm saying "can" and that the only reason you could gain control of him is becaus he gave you his centerline by turning off angle.

    Plenty actually. I've seen people in mma and boxing angle to take the half body, pak da (albeit slightly modified), take the inner gate, take the inner gate and use the neck pulling hand while striking, use lan sao to turn their opponent to take the half body.
    And while I may not necessarily use po-chung, or lap da, or gan sao po pai, I can still trap them using the techniques listed above.

    Doesn't matter. My comment was that trapping at the elbow is more effective. It doesn't matter which style someone does they can still trap at the elbow.


    No Simon you made a comment about the range from which wing chun trapping starts and you were wrong. It starts at the same range from the other traps you showed. Throw away comment or not you were in error.
     
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2012
  10. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Because people shouldn't chase the hands.
     
  11. Ero-Sennin

    Ero-Sennin Highly Skilled Peeper Supporter

    I don't really get what you're going on about this whole elbow ordeal Sketco. The only way I can see trapping at the elbow to be more effective is if you're trying to get closer to the opponent, which doesn't seem to be the intent behind the techniques shown. To me this last video looks like parry/counter variations (I say this because I'm not familiar with the term trapping) for maximum range punches, meaning your punch lands at the full extent of what you can reach. If you were to trap at the elbow you lose a considerable amount of power in your straight punches and maneuverability from your distance. You have to be a lot more committed to what you're trying to do. Trapping at the elbow seems to me like it would be the initial move to clinch with the opponent, or you would have to switch to hooks/uppercuts to generate real power with trying to hit your opponent.

    I think trapping at the elbow is a whole different subject as it places you into a different range where different punches, counters, and possible counter attacks would have to be considered. It sounds like you're getting annoyed about a video on boxing that has no hooks in the video, when the video is about throwing straight punches?

    I do agree that trying to grab somebody's hand is a bit far fetched when sparring (in boxing or mma as that is what I have experience in) but many of the same things done in the video can be done with a strong parry, knocking the opponents hand down far enough to come across with a punch. The "trap" part is unnecessary although the concept of getting the arm out of the way by leading the hand elsewhere is essentially the same.
     
  12. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    It's because if you only trap at the wrist you leave the elbow free to fold over the top for a counter trap. And as for getting closer you have to get close to trap other wise you're equal and just slugging it out. Either you take the half body from the outer gate, you take the inner gate, you trap two hands with one or combine this with the previous two. All of them require closing the distance.

    Which is the same whether I use a wing chun straight punch or a boxing punch... Unless I break my structure using the boxing punch.

    The trap, step, and strike must be all simultaneous so you drive the whole body through any punch when you're closing. There's also a special way of adding more power to short punches for when you're in close and not stepping in, which you learn doing the biu gwan drill using the luk dim boon gwan. Once I take the half body I'm in a structurally superior position so I don't have to worry so much about maneuverability. And if they try to disengage just follow and strike as you step.


    Trapping the wrist is only taught to beginners to help with basic concepts of structure, angle, timing, footwork, etc.
    For trapping the elbow you start in the same range as you would for trapping the wrist. The same distance Simon showed. All the attacks are the same. Your position is determined as you move in to do the trap and once you execute the trap you have to worry move about them countering you with structure and angle than strikes.

    Not sure what you mean by this.

    Well you can grab someone's wrist at times but only as a prelude to the trap at the second gate (usually the elbow). The other part you're right about. The movement in the second part of chum kiu that most people think is an uppercut is actually for closing off the center line using the forearm. I was training one of the more junior students who is competing, where only boxing gloves are allowed unfortunately, on how to use this sharply to create an opening as you describe. But you can't do it too strongly, just enough, or you give them enough momentum to change the movement into another strike.
     
  13. Simon

    Simon Moved on Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    The problem Sketco is that you are being far to specific.

    I could do this against that and so on. Unfortunately real fighting (and sparring) doesn't happen like that.

    These moves you mention, do you make them work every single time against every single type of opponent? Big guys, small guys, boxers, karatekas, Thai's, rushers, jammers, runners, anglers, bouncers, and so on.

    Remember that the videos are about concepts, not a one size fits all.

    To exclude anything in training is wrong, just as it is wrong to blindly believe that your (anyones) style has all of the answers.
    It would be wrong for me as an outsider to tell anyone their sparring drills are wrong. My aim is to say, "have you considered this"?

    You say that WC has no feints because they aren't necessary. Again do you manage to make every single strike against every single opponent work? Surely you must if they aren't required.

    Yes we all know about maintaining centre, but I think you underestimate, or have never seen, how much of a threat some of these feints are. It takes years of practice to be able to sell a move to an opponent and even though we are only filmng a video, and to an extent Andy knows what's coming, the flinch responses are real.

    The flinch is a natural reaction, not a martial reaction and a skilled practitioner will draw this out of you, often regardless of how skilled you are at maintaining centre.

    This tiny 1% is what seperates us in sparring.

    I'm sure many of us have sparred either a senior student, instructor of someone at a seminar who we cannot even get near. It is not what they are doing that sets them apart, it is what they're not doing. It is the economy of motion, the little tweaks here and there that unsettle you. A mixture of the 5 ways of attack, but ever so subtle.

    I'm not about teaching gross motor skills, you instructor is there for that. I'm just trying to add something you may not have seen or considered before.

    You said that you hadn't seen the feint, trap and punch before. That is all you need take from the videos. Discard the rest.

    If you are as experienced as you say you will be able to take that concept (not technique) and apply it to your entire arsenal.
    This is exactly why I have not really refined the technique and explained where the weak points are, the balance concerns, the opponents structure and so on.

    Someone said in reply to an earlier video he liked the way I angled off. That is all he need take. Forget what technique I throw, just take the concept.
    Try it, drill it, keep it or throw it away.
     
  14. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    No not really. I'm talking about probably THE most basic concepts in trapping. Take the half body or the inner gate, one hand controls two, maintain center, and that trapping the second gate is the best option.

    I make them work regularly against these people and I see them used successfully in MMA.

    The most basic trapping concepts are one size fits all.

    I wouldn't say excluding some things in training is wrong but the rest I agree with. You're saying "have you considered this" and essentially I'm saying the same thing right back.

    They aren't feasible in the environment in which it operates. Run at your opponent full speed and tell me you have time to feint.



    Like I said it's only something I can take for sport sparring. It's incompatible with wing chun otherwise.


    Yeah fair enough.

    And you don't have to avoid the fact that you were wrong about the wing chun distance Simon :D It's okay to be wrong sometimes. It's even been know to happen to me :p
     
  15. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Anyway ignore me for now and get back to work on the videos! I am getting useful things for sport sparring out of them.
     
  16. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Which ones? There was a LOT of possibles thrown out by Simon there - some more plausible than others in the "been there, done that" answer

    Examples?

    Not to be douchey (well not beyond my usual standard anyway) but the latter comment is easily provable/falsifiable

    WC traps work very well - in WC. Outside of that there is a LOT of tweaking required because the energy feeds are so different. So much so that the elusive "good WC" video is constantly referenced.

    Some of the best HIA/LIA guys out there are Thai Boxers....grapplers are the best by a mile
     
  17. Sketco

    Sketco Banned Banned

    Big guys - check
    small guys - check
    boxers - check
    karatekas - check
    Thai's - check
    rushers - check
    jammers - check
    runners - check
    anglers - check
    bouncers - check

    Neck pulling hand AKA single collar tie is a trap at the last gate which I've seen used by Rampage, Ben Saunders, Anderson Silva a few times, and quite a few others.

    Taking the half body from the outergate or taking the inner gate is something strikers do period. Just some better than others.

    Parry with the hand and punch is just pak da with delayed timing.

    I'm having trouble pulling up the long videos on my phone but I've seen the lan sao used to turn an opponent taught in a number of boxing videos. The most recent one which comes to mind is I'm pretty sure I saw it in Don Familton's superior boxing series.
     
  18. Zinowor

    Zinowor Moved on

    Btw, I've been meaning to ask you Simon, if you can put all the videos you uploaded, into the original post. Makes it easier for the lazy people. :p
     
  19. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Fair enough

    FWIW I have yet to meet anyone that can do a "pure" WC trap on me so I guess this one boils down to personal experience :)



    Gotcha - we are actually at the same point of agreement on this (which comes back to the comment I made in the initial post). That said the "Thai Style" clinch/trap is vastly superior mechanically from most other stuff (with the possible exception of CACC as Billy R locks up - ironically quite centreline focused)




    Again we are now beyond he scope of "purity" in the moves and we agree

    See above!

    As long as there is no "you are doing it wrong" approach to trapping I am more than happy to live an let live - and from your LATTER comments we are in an accord. However, earlier on it did appear as if you were specifically decrying a technique as not being WC whenit was not meant to be anyway!
     
  20. jorvik

    jorvik Valued Member

    FWIW and IMHO..........Simons videos are excellent, loved them and I think we can all learn from them.Sketci IMHO again does a very polished version of WC ( maybe a Wong Sheung Leung system or variation).............very close in, people who critisise WC don't know how good these guys are against boxers and even MT fighters....really though they are both talking about different things..........yeah you could do that with the elbow, but the guy may be jabbing you so it becomes more difficult.only way to really challenge it is to square up.same as it's always been...................I like both approaches, and seek to learn more of both
     

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