Similarities & differences of Bukti Negara & Serak?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by masterchimp, Aug 18, 2007.

  1. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    The answer is something of yes and no. The curriculum he was showing was Bukti Negara. And he was involved with PSBN from the beginning. But it really wasn't his thing. The sensibility, the quality of movement, the applications he chose, the kembangan he demonstrated and more were almost pure Serak.

    When Tiel and I took our Guru Muda test *mumble* *mumble* years ago we did the same juru juru and all like everyone else, but we moved differently. The way we applied the same motions was quite different than the other people testing. We had more of a tendency to alleviate, receive and then give, cover lines rather than blocking, cover both high and low and change levels than the people we were testing with.

    Now, the way things are taught may have changed since then. But the Bukti practitioners I've seen since then had those same differences in styling.

    A few caveats here:

    • I learned Bukti, but it was with a Sera attitude. What is less important than how and how well.
    • We've had more than a decade of Sera. No false modesty or pride here, but we understand a lot more and have better skills than we did back then. It could be that much of what is obvious in Sera was just as available in Bukti Negara but that we weren't capable of encompassing it at the time.
    • Even with that there are crossover issues. Even with a teacher who was giving Sera understanding we figure about a year of the four or so was a write off. We were certainly ahead of the game, but we would probably have better Sera overall if we'd started with it from the beginning.
    • In the time we were doing Bukti and from players we've seen afterwards there's been an evolution in the style and system. But we haven't been able to see much in the way of quantitative changes in its efficiency. They've been qualitative changes in the particulars. There might be a lot more stuff hidden. There might not. We can only speak to what we learned at the time and what we've seen afterwards. We don't do the current revision of PSBN.

    OK, with the weasel words out of the way here are some of the significant differences. Use only as directed. Your mileage may vary. Discontinue use if you experience side effects such as blurry vision, excessive tentacle growth or change in blood type.

    First, there's a bit more to the Sera curriculum. More is not always better. But it is certainly noteworthy. There are 18 juru juru as opposed to 8. There are more offensive and defensive sambut sambut. I don't believe juru sempok is taught in PSBN. The extra material probably exists in the PSBN movements, but it is not going to be obvious unless you are at a very high level or have a teacher who knows both and can bring it out.

    The movements in a Sera juru are typically closer to root movements. The ones in PSBN are closer to their major applications. The armed part of the program is closer to the surface [in Sera] even in the empty-hand juru juru.

    The footwork in PSBN tends to emphasize, to quote Pendekar de Thouars, "constant forward pressure". That is certainly one important attitude or aspect of Sera. It is not the only one and tends to be de-emphasized as the student gains confidence with the rest of the repertoire.

    Sera is definitely taught in a more physically relaxed fashion. There's a lot less tension in the movements. Several things follow from this. There's a lot more breath work and serious attention to soft focus. It emphasizes alleviation quite a bit more, and the alleviate, store, generate, release whip- or wave-like body mechanics play a much bigger part. Sensitivity is paramount, not just local sensitivity but hand-foot, elbow-knee and shoulder-hip. I hesitate to say "internal". That has a very specific technical meaning. But internal stylists - Taiji, Xing Yi, Ba Gua and Aikido - have said that they see it in the way our teacher teaches and moves and in old tapes of Pendekar de Thouars doing Sera.

    I never saw the more sophisticated parts of PSBN's use of distance, timing, deception and screwing with the opponents' perceptions of same. That may well be because I was not at a level where I could appreciate them. But the fact remains that I did not see them taught explicitly in Bukti classes. They are core in Sera.

    Those are some of the major differences as I see them. They might disappear if I were to spend time with advanced Bukti-only teachers. But until and unless that happens it's how it appears to this practitioner.
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2007
  2. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    gig went very well thanks! White horse mountain was amazing!

    Good food, good ale, loud guitars! And a festival with many beautiful women. What more could you ask for? I only wished I had more time to train with you guys. It was deffinetly nice to see and feel some pieces of the training i was not getting. Interesting to see how the "newer" and or the generations that came from Bukti first then serak are bit farther from the root. I felt as if i was once again starting at square one.

    Anyhow I will see you all soon.

    Best wishes.

  3. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    drummer did some silat with me in hotel. He is in now : )

    It was indeed great to meet you all.


  4. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    About a third of the time we feel stupid and ignorant. A third of the time we feel clumsy. A third of the time we feel both :rolleyes:
  5. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    There is a thousand time's more understanding then there is material. when the matterial becomes immaterial there is only understanding. only principles
  6. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    True enough. But he wanted to know the differences. And I'm calling those as I honestly see them.
  7. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    I guess Im calling similarities whats the difference
  8. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    Thanks Tellner and what you have said also correlates with what someone else told me as well. Thanks again. :cool:
  9. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Another thing to keep in mind is that while understanding is much more important than particular movements and infinitely more so than techniques how you move has a great effect on what you do. I've outlined what I see as the differences between the two very closely related Arts. It seems pretty clear at this point that some of the difference in the kind of movement and body mechanics between the respective practitioners is due to the sort of motion that is patterned as part of the training. Better or worse? That's a tough call. The proper answer is "better for whom and for what purpose?" The similarities are vast. The differences exist and can be identified.

    Lately what I use the juru juru for has changed. In the beginning they were a source for things to do. Guru Plinck would pull stuff out of them for us to use. Now the more senior students in the class are using the formal curriculum at least in part as a memory aid. Things that we see or do need to have a point of reference so that they will be remembered. The elements of the formal curriculum - juru, sambut, sambutan, langka - are taking on the role of a memory palace. It's not uncommon to think of something as "Same breathing as that part of juru 1 combined with the 'airplane in the wind' langka tiga footwork; fool the timing with the lower body; triplet timing with the hands like offensive sambut 6" and thereby have a chance of remembering the essence even though the particulars will be different next time. In other words, we're beginning to put stuff back into the motions.

    One thing I will say for sure. Most White Americans have no sense of rhythm or timing whatso-frickin'-ever. A lot of Silat depends on having at least a little physical grasp of both. It's fine to talk about "broken rhythm" or changing the timing. If you can't physically express it it's just so many words. It took a couple years of African drumming to overcome that particular cultural handicap.

    If you're a honky or just dance like one you need to learn to make music, take up drumming or Capoeira or something. Otherwise you'll be missing out on a huge part of whatever Silat you do. Try to get beyond *thump* *thump* *thump* *thump* 4/4 timing. And no, loosening up your hips and learning to move them will not turn you into a homosexual. Honest to Cthulhu I've worked with a lot of (American and Western European Caucasian) guys who seemed to think it would :bang:
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2007
  10. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    strange the reverse is also true the timing advancements gained from the art helped with my musical timing.It has changed the way i look at all timing and all things time .
  11. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    If you ask pendekar Paul how many motions are in the bukti negara jurus he says 499
    he sees the motion's from the inside.Like a musician see's his own composition . there is a code to the symbol's .An example is jurus one is the uppercut jurus only problem is there are no uppercuts in jurus one
  12. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    interesting similarities to Serak

    [ame=""]Silat G5 Basic Fighting Techniques - YouTube[/ame]
  13. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Eerily familiar.
  14. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Incredibly similar to 'us' too, and we are not 'related' to Serak or Bukti.

    Good to see a lot of commonalities make us part of a larger family :)
  15. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Good Silat is Good Silat is Good Silat.
  16. Swalesey

    Swalesey New Member

    I like to think that is what we all are. Seeing all the arguing about "MAH STYLE IS BETTER THAN YOURS!" or " MY GURU WOULD KICK YOUR GURU'S ASS!"

    Made me think twice about if I would like to use martial arts forums at all. I was warned quite early on by someone I respect, that martial arts forums are poisonous places. I use forums on the internet for other things, and enjoy using them, but I aren't interested in listening to people arguing about how there style is so awesome, so everything else is crap.

    We are all walking towards the same destination. Some people take different routes, and walk at different paces, but we all are aiming for the same goals.

    in short,
    Discussion of strengths and weaknesses between styles= healthy.
    Flaming of other people's choices of style and ability = Trollish.

    Never feed the troll :)
  17. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Playing devil's advocate.

    Commendable sentiment.
    Where is this destination and what might these goals be that we supposedly are all aiming for? Personally I think that there exists a profusion of 'goals' out there :).
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2007
  18. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    A voice of sanity. This may get you barred from tha Intrawebs :rolleyes:
  19. killick57

    killick57 New Member

    quick email


    Do you have a quick email address I can contact you on? I tried via this site but it appears to have bounced.

    Just a private question.

    Kind Regards

    Richard Killick
  20. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

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