Similarities & differences of Bukti Negara & Serak?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by masterchimp, Aug 18, 2007.

  1. jalan

    jalan New Member

    Saying that the child has surpassed or is superior than the mother is ridiculous. That's not coming from the PDT camp. There is no argument there. These threads look to me like someone wants to stir the pot. Masterchimp, if it is true that you study at the PDT academy, which I doubt, you should be talking to your teacher.
  2. masterchimp

    masterchimp New Member

    Well like I said in the first place"all arguments aside"I just wanted to hear the opinions of those who studied both arts under someone other then PDT.And I had nothing to do with saying anything about the child surpassing the mother. :topic: That came from someone else and it's the first I heard anything like that.
    "Talking to my teacher" is different then asking other educated people what they happen to know on any subject.Unlike alot of other people on here I'm not here to argue about whos teacher knows what or does'nt.("I know karate"-"Oh ya well I'm a f@#k'in ninja,beat that!"-who cares-)If it works it works,if you're learning something that's good .The two people who have the most informative things to say on the subject are Steve Perry and Tellner and they don't have anything to do with my teacher,but I respect what they have to put on the table because they've been doing this alot longer then I have and I thanked them for their responses.Am I stirring the pot by asking a question and being happy that I got an answer?
    Again,I would gladly welcome anyone elses response to my question that has any basis in actual knowledge.Thank you everyone and I'm sorry that I started a heated arguement that I did'nt start.
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2007
  3. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    There you have it steve mass consensus .there never was an argument to be made and there is very little logical ground for disagreement when it comes to anything related to the art itself. Peace
  4. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    On Pendekar-ship


    No argument from me.

    Of course one could always adhere to the old way ... where pendekarship is never a title that is passed on by a teacher, rather it is a sign of respect passed up from the people who feel they have benefited in the relationship ... i.e. known pesilat helps establish food co-op in his village ... does many other public works for the good of the people who then begin to call him Pendekar so-and-so.
    Because the person they wish to honour happens to follow the martial way, they call him pendekar (sort of knightish conotations ... a pendekar also has the attributes of a satria).

    So, if the students (followers) feel so inclined, it's perfectly legit for them to refer to their teacher/leader as a pendekar.

    My 2 ringgit.
  5. jalan

    jalan New Member

    masterchimp, the child surpassing the mother response was just general. Not directed to you or anyone specifically for that matter. My suggestion to you is to seek out the people that you are directing your questions to and getting responses from. They seem like a decent bunch of guys willing to share knowledge that they have. Maybe you will get the answers that you are looking for. No disrespect,but I still doubt that you train at a PDT academy.
  6. masterchimp

    masterchimp New Member

  7. jalan

    jalan New Member

    Just a hunch, I guess.
  8. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    well it was told to me by Cass Magda aprox 4 or 5 years ago while I was still studying from him.

    And also by Someone who travelled to Holland to be by Rudy Tirlenden's bedside before he passed. It may have been something Guru Rudy said but I have heard it from a few sources now some whom have trained with Maurice or have had contact with other

    Now granted PDT obviously did well with his 4 years. He evidently has demonstrated he has mastery of the art and his Bukti is also a good art. No one denied that.

    However my issue is if it only took 4 to pass the art. Why not teach it in 4 years? Why should it take many years to get the information you need to really start working the art?

    The title "Pendekar" to me means protector,guide and healer. This is how it was taught to me by folks who spent time in Indonesia.

    I guess we will never know for sure what occured between JDevrie & PDT.
    But Actions speak louder than words. PDT's Silat is great. NO ONE has ever disputed that. I just think there as been a huge level of dishonesty and unclarity that should be aired out so we can all put things in perspective.

    Santiago Dobles
  9. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    sorry 5 rumors still dont equal proof. think about what you are saying. in 50 years is anyone going to know except you how many visits you had with guru cliff all the way up to his demise .or for that matter how many times you have seen your uncle .its just
    unknowable .But if it helps you to think you can understand things sooner by believing this more power to you brother.
  10. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member

    Where the Truth Lies ...

    I certainly won't argue with the last part of your comments. Who lied about what to whom is a big problem when one tries to suss out the history of Sera, whether it is in Java, Holland, or America.

    Written records are few and far between, and those mostly letters; oral history is colorful, but sometimes changes depending on who is telling it.

    And that's assuming the speaker is being as honest as he can be, and doesn't have a personal or political axe to grind. Which as most of us in Sera in the U.S. realize is not always the case.

    Writing it down at this late date doesn't make it any truer.

    I don't where Cass got his information, though I'd be surprised if he got it from Stevan Plinck, who was for some years his teacher. The validity of what he heard is as open to question as the origins of Pak Sera or Mas Djut, about whom much is said but little of which can be proved.

    As I understand it, the pure, basic curriculum of Sera could easily be presented in four years or less. Supposedly Rudy ter Linden learned all eighteen djurus in one summer.

    The problem is being able to absorb and internalize the stuff until it becomes useful. You can't do that in a summer.

    I think if you were training with a teacher for hours every day, and practicing on your own for more hours, you could pull it off. But the village model isn't how it's taught most places today. Students in the U.S. who typically come to Sera are older, usually with a background in some art that needs to be unlearned because it screws you up, and they attend a couple of classes a week and train for an hour or two a day on their own. That is, by its nature, going to be a slower way to learn the material.

    Paul spent a number of years playing with the stuff before he ever got to the U.S., and he worked with other teachers in other styles, exchanging techniques. Rudy ter Linden was one, and I am given to understand that Jimmy' Woo's San Soo was in there, too.

    If Paul started training in the late 1940's, as is generally accepted, and he didn't arrive in the U.S. until the early 1960's, as is established, then he had plenty of time to work on his art before he got here, and plenty of time since to refine it.

    Difficult to believe that somebody who has spent forty or fifty years training is going to be able to deliver most of what he knows to somebody in a few years.

    Bruce Less had only four years of Wing Chun. But he kept learning and adding material into his JKD material. Same thing with Sera. Good teachers are going to find new things in their training, work them out, and then pass them along to their students. Good teachers don't learn the core of an art and then stand still, they keep exploring it.

    That is what Paul did. It certainly is what Stevan Plinck has been doing. Me, I'm happy to go along for the ride. Knowing all the djurus and sambuts and assorted drills isn't enough. You can be shown those in a few weeks, and you'll be able to walk through them without falling down, but you won't have the art.

    A thorough understanding of the underlying principles and how to apply them is necessary, and that takes a certain number of hours doing them. Those "Aha!" epiphanies that pop up from time to time as something you've been doing a thousand times suddenly presents you with a reason and suddenly it makes perfect sense -- those are the moments that give you the art.

    We can argue about Bukti or Sera, Paul or Victor, Pak Sera or Mas Djust until the cows come home, and none of that gives you the art, either. The history is only the sizzle; the steak is in the training.
  11. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    It doesn't really affect my practice. All it says is if Paul could have been transferred the Art in 4 years than most should be able to learn and teach to more or less in the same time frame. Anyhow it would be interesting to hear it from PDT as to exactly how and when he trained.

    And also to hear it from others in the family circle that may have witnessed it.
  12. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

  13. gungfujoe

    gungfujoe Please, call me Erik. :)

    I have no connection to PDT's art or his past or present students, but there are certainly plausible answers to this. The simplest is that very few people train in the manner that the "true masters" do/did, in that few of us are willing or able to make the sacrifices necessary to make martial arts study a full-time pursuit, whereas the best martial artists historically have generally been able to do this to varying degrees (some "only" to the extent that a full-time job is "full time," others to the extent where it was the major part of their lives, and only eating and sleeping consistently interfered with it). Because of this, they can learn things a lot faster than a student training for a couple hours a day, a few days per week (or even a couple hours a day, most days per week). Second, and more importantly, the best martial arts (those who rise to the top of a system or found their own systems) tend to learn much more quickly than most of us, through some combination of innate talent, obsessive personalities, and prior training to build on. It was said that Willem Reeders learned entire silat systems in only a few months, and while that may well be the kind of hyperbole that's typical when people talk about the key figures in their arts' histories, it's likely that he could learn complete systems very rapidly, given that he began training in his family's art when he was four years old, and trained intensively throughout his life.

    It's entirely possible (I'd say likely) that PDT was one of these blessed (or cursed, depending on your view) individuals who, through a combination of these factors, learned Serak more quickly than nearly anyone else would be able to, so what he learned in four years might take ten years, twelve years, or twenty years to teach to his students. Without knowing much about him, it wouldn't surprise me if, if he were to find a suitably gifted student, and he was able to dedicate that much time to teaching the student, he could/would teach the art to that student in four years (provided he still teaches Serak, and hasn't gone entirely to teaching Bukti Negara).
  14. pukulan student

    pukulan student Valued Member

    I heard Pendekar Paul say his teacher gave him one juru in one year .I dont know if that meant it was a year between each jurus or just the first took that long but it gives a clue to the pace of his training .If it was a year between each juru thats about two decades of training.
  15. Rebo Paing

    Rebo Paing Pigs and fishes ...

    Well, as an Indonesian, I guess I qualify as someone who has "spent time in Indonesia" :D .

    Yes Santiago, a "pendekar" (the person) can embody all of those attributes but they are not what defines the title, as they are ancillary to the core meaning of pendekar. Pendekar confers "knightly" (as in martial) virtue.

    Last edited: Aug 31, 2007
  16. jalan

    jalan New Member

    "PDT" conducts public workshops and an annual training camp. You should try to attend one and ask him these questions? Have you ever had the opportunity or have you ever attended a workshop of his?
  17. Silatyogi

    Silatyogi Valued Member

    Well after spending the day with Guru Plinck on thursday. Its safe to say HE KNOWS EXACTLY WHAT HE IS DOING. I know where I am headed.

    (Todd and Steve it was a pleasure meeting you guys. Wish I could have hung out more. Maybe next time. )

    I plan to see more of him very very soon as well as my teacher Guru Cliff.

    If one day the oppurtunity and the vibes are nice between the Pendekar/PDT Assoc and my teachers then maybe I would go visit otherwise it serves no purpose to go and see. That would be like pouring salt on open wounds.

    Hopefully though I am optimistic that one day things will be smoother and emotions can get healed. Serak Belongs to all sincere players and seekers not just one association.


    Santiago Dobles
  18. Steve Perry

    Steve Perry Valued Member


    Great to meet you, too, Santiago. I hope the gig went well for you.
  19. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    It was really good to meet you too, Santiago. I hope you'll be able to make it out more often and bring your drummer over to the Dark Side.
  20. Brian R. VanCis

    Brian R. VanCis Valued Member

    In Stevan Plinck's video Pukulan Pentjak Silat - The Devastating Fighting Art of Bukti Negara - Serak is he demonstrating the Bukti Negara or Serak or is it more a combination of both? (Is there no Bukti Negara without Serak) Certainly there is going to be crossover as one system came from the other but what are the true differances between the two? :cool:

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