Hi there, I was just wondering are there many teachers if any that teach Old silat, Silek Tuo, Silek Minang in and around london? I think some arts like steven Benitez's started out teaching this then progressed into there own system. Is that right? I would just like to know if anyone knows of any schools or teachers in London teaching the old Silat/Silek Tuo Thanks as always.
Hi, I have some students who are studying silat tua in the London area. Guru Zainal Abidin will be running a seminar on the evening of wednesday Nov 28th at Bob Breen's Academy. Best wishes Nigel Sutton
Hey Siulong, Steve studied & teaches several arts, one of which was Silat Angin (Wind ),Silek Tuo with Pak Rusli St Rajo Bunsu, and also trained with Guru Ed Panduko (Under Babak Rusli). The arts taught by Steve are the same as what he learnt himself. Still trying to find you an instructor in South London, but everyone seems to live North of the river! Cheers, Wali
Thanks for the info. Where are your guys studying this please? Is it an open class? Looking more and more like i made the correct decision in the first place to go to Eastwest......
On the subject of Silek tuo I have a question! I have heard it said that Cimande is the oldest and first form of silat in Indonesia. I have also heard it said that the wali introduced silat into Indonesia and before this no silat existed. Since the Wali were in Indonesia around 500 years ago that would make Cimande a maximum of 500 years old. To my understanding Silek tuo traces its history back much further then 500 years. The result of this is we have silek being practice in Indonesia long before the Wali ever set foot in Indonesia. what's your thoughts on this?
Narrue, I've never heard of this 'hard' connection between the Wali Songo before, not that this means it can't be true If your assumption is right there is a big time lapse between the days of the first Wali Songo and the recognized founder of Cimande. Mbah Kahir lived in the 1700's, the Wali Songo from the 1500's. As far as I've done modest study upon the Wali Songo some have lead in battles and waged war but if this was comparable with what we consider Pencak Silat?? I know one thing for sure though, a lot of Indonesian local history is based upon oral tradition. We all know what kind of influence this can have on accurate dates and timelines....... Pekir
Hi Pekir, I said "I have heard it said" by others that the Wali brought silat to Indonesia, whether I believe or agree with this I a different matter
The first records of the dvipantera (sp?) kingdom in indonesia is attributed to be a couple of hundred years bc, kingdoms came and went.. they were farming with paddy fields in around 8th century ad so there was a fair amount of influence from india and civilisations by quite early on...there were various other empires like the srivijaya empire... india already had sophisticated martial arts two thousand years ago... indonesia being fairly developed early on would most definately had combat systems.. farming in cultures = the accumulation of items, its usually the time when people start to devlop more sophisticated crafting as they do not have to move about, and normally in cultures there are specific actions taken to protect these possessions.. so i should think there were systemised martial arts long before the wali arrived... as mentioned before the problem is with oral tradition, and also human nature is such that we like to attribute things to our 'social group'... whats most likely is that theer were arts that adapted over time to changing forces, which introduced new knowledge, adapted to different invaders, their weapons and tactics overtime, and the like.. Guru Edwardo Panduko cites four masters who came to sumatra as bodyguards who were instrumental in forming silat as it is now, one a persian wrestler, one a chinese practitioner, an indian points specialist and one a siamese kuching fighter (ground specialist). You also have the problem that solutions develop not in isolation, but in the cultural overview, so many inventions that were discovered in western culture had different people working on things at the same time, and were invented about the same time independently of each other.. The indian influence on silat is pretty irefutable i think, i studied a central keralan kalaripayatt style, which is attributed to be over 1000 years old, which was basically similar to silat, and if shown it wthout prior knowledge would have said it was. Vital points i have heard referred to as urat saraf and marma adi... marma adi translates as secret knowledge and is indian in origin, the name used by kalaripayatt practitioners... anyway, i could carry on with correlative anecdotes, but basically my point is its unlikely the arts started when the wali came as indonesia had already had so many influences and turbulant times before..
as mentioned before the problem is with oral tradition, and also human nature is such that we like to attribute things to our 'social group'... Exactly! And this is almost certainly the origin of those statements which say the Wali introduced Silat to Indonesia. I’m not saying the Wali could not have had influences on Silat but its highly questionable that they invented or introduced it. You also have the problem that solutions develop not in isolation, but in the cultural overview, so many inventions that were discovered in western culture had different people working on things at the same time, and were invented about the same time independently of each other.. Every person is a product of their time ie they are moulded by the events which happen around them. It is also true that every product is a result of its time ie a need becomes apparent and many people of an inventive nature will turn their minds to solving it. I feel that silat may have been heavily influenced by yogic, dance and philosophy of an Indian origin along with native practices. The indian influence on silat is pretty irefutable i think, i studied a central keralan kalaripayatt style, which is attributed to be over 1000 years old, which was basically similar to silat, and if shown it wthout prior knowledge would have said it was. Vital points i have heard referred to as urat saraf and marma adi... marma adi translates as secret knowledge and is indian in origin, the name used by kalaripayatt practitioners... Marma adi or varma adi has an Aryan origin, its practice is perhaps older then the art of kalari payatt. According to its Science if the body is attacked and none of the varma are hit then the person will survive. Technically speaking if you were shot with ten arrows and it was your luck day that none of the varma were hit then your chances of survival are good despite being shot with ten arrows. This understanding lead to warriors covering the more vital varma before they went into battle, this could be with brest plates, discs and torc which covered neck/arms & legs. The word varma is the origin of the word armor (armor is to protect your varma) In any case there is little chance that this and other similar knowledge were imparted to Indonesia via the Muslim teachings.
The existence of martial arts in Indonesia is what I know indeed quite old. The oldest proof of martial arts in Indonesia are the carvings on the borobudur. If I remember correctly you can see people in fighting positions and some with weapons on these carvings. Since the Borobudur was build in the 8th century (I think). We can say that pencak silat is at least 1200 years old and probably even older. Garuda...
So, how can we be sure it wasn't silat that influenced Indian Martial Arts such as Kalari Payat? Do not assume that a 'culture' is what one gives to another. Cultural difussionalism is always a two way process. Ever had a Sri Lankan curry? Some are called 'sambols', some are made with ground fish, some use lemongrass & limejuice, pandan leaves. There is a distinct South East Asian influence. There was certainly cultural interplay, trade, & exchange of ideas in the Buddhist era.
Indian language, art,architecture,religion and mythology have all been incorporated and influenced Indonesia in some way. It seems lightly that this would also be true of martial arts and weaponry. An example or this is this ancient weapon (see link) found in Indonesia and depicted in early stone carvings. If you know Indian weaponry you will instantly recognise the hilt design as being Indian in origin. http://keris.fotopic.net/c1268600.html Below some Indian hilt designs for your comparison.
My father was in Manipur india and he got to train a martial arts class of indian MA he said that the application was very similar to what he has seen me do with Serak. He said the emphasized more grappling but they had many similarities.
Interesting area the far North East of India, it is very much a cultural meeting place between India, China & Burma. The Buddhist 'Himalaya route' extends to Thailand and beyond. There are many MAs in the area as yet unexploited by the West. It's hard to get a special permit from the Indian government for some of the areas. I got turned back at the Mizoram border 7 or 8 years ago apparently due to some Bangladeshi Al Qaida training camps in the area. I was hoping to sneak into Burma on the old Enfield but the border has been closed since WW2. I did however make it to Cherrapunji, the wettest place on earth Anyways, I digress.....my point is, it does not suprise me that there are silat similarities in the area as many of the influences are very similar to Indonesia. If anyone is in that area, I have a very good contact in Shillong. An Aussie married into an influential tribal family.....mad as a hatstand though....
I mentioned that I would love to learn the Indian martial art called Vajra Mushti. It turns out that the only westerner ever to learn this is the Australian BJJ expert, John Will http://www.bjj.com.au/john_article_web_7.html
