Silat useless or misunderstood ?

Discussion in 'Silat' started by Kuntaoist, Jan 30, 2013.

  1. SoKKlab

    SoKKlab The Cwtch of Death!

    You sure that's not 'got hit in the Goloks'?
     
  2. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    You mean you are going to take that statement with a pinch of salt or you mean the whole article?

    Anyway...we can't test pak Turpijn any more on that, he passed away in the 90's, but back then he frequently got tested on his skills (and passed) throughout Europe. And his Silat (Setia Hati) got quite a good name then in Holland (as being very effective)
     
  3. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    The statement is clearly false, and diminishes the credibility of the rest of the article.
     
  4. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    With respect if you read the article with an understanding of traditional silat training as practised here in Malaysia, it is quite possible to be hit with knives or machetes during training and in tests without being cut or feeling pain. usually this is done to you by your teacher and it is how he strikes you that is the important thing. Blows may indeed be full force but if the intent to slash, maim or kill is not there then the effect will be different. I have been hit full force in this manner and while bruised have remained uncut. this does not mean that you are invulnerable to weapons strikes but merely means, in the context of your training, that you have courage and trust in your teacher, both of which do much to enhance your martial skills.
    I hope I do not offend anyone with this, my personal experience, as I am a mere youth in the art of silat but I feel there is a danger of "throwing out the baby with the bathwater" if you allow statements about being hit with a blade and not being hurt to undermine the value of this article.
    best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
     
  5. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Not really "being hit with a blade" then is it? And certainly not the context it is being presented in
     
  6. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    I am sorry but I am not sure how being hit with a blade is not being hit with a blade? How is it not? I repeat I have been hit with a parang blade with force enough to leave bruises but it did not cut - this is not magic but more to do with the qualities of the blade used and the intent of the user. Such training is fairly common in kampong silat groups and as I stated is a test/confirmation of courage, rather than any training for "real" invulnerability.
    As I'm sure others on this board who have trained in Asia will attest, training over here is very different from in the West. On the whole it tends to be a lot less "safe", concrete on the floor instead of mats, metal blades often sharp to some degree and so on.
    I guess my main point is that the article had many interesting and relevant things to say about "real" silat training and if you discount this because of what the writer describes of his training with weapons then you are "walking away empty-handed from a pile of gold."
    Once again please forgive me as I have no intent to offend and there are many seniors with much more knowledge and experience than me.
    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
     
  7. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    We understand that it's a trick, it's one that's common in Chinese martial arts, however as Hannibal rightly says that's not how it's presented in the article.
    As we can see, it's meaningless with a properly sharp blade
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlybPPTAvx4"]kick ass miracles-escrima jackass - YouTube[/ame]
     
  8. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    Dear Mr Gash,
    The blade I was hit with was sharp and I think there is a danger of (if you will pardon the pun) missing the point here. A silat trained fighter, armed with an array of blades and with the belief that he is invulnerable to your weapons is not an opponent to be faced lightly. Add to that the fact that he believes that he is going to Paradise if he kills a non-believer in a righteous cause and you can see why the US Army had to adopt the Colt .45 automatic as their sidearm after fighting the Moros in the Philippines.

    I have some passing acquaintance with the Chinese martial arts and in the 34 years I have been practising them I have not come across any blade training to match the intensity and ferocity of the silat bladework. The closest I have come is in my practise of wuzuquan, but my teacher comes from a village tradition and complements his training with mental and, for want of a better word, spiritual, practices from the Maoshan tradition of Daoist magic.

    It is fair to say you might have more experience of these things, my Chinese martial arts training for the most part has taken place in China, Malaysia and Singapore.

    As for the video I have seen that before and self-mutilation is not what I have attempted to describe; any local silat teacher who sees that film will be able to tell you the reasons why his "invulnerability did not work, according to their belief system.

    Anyway please let me stress that I am not trying to be argumentative, just pointing out that for those interested in genuine silat training, as carried out at source, the article contained some very useful information and just because an example, taken out of cultural context, appears ridiculous to the logical, educated Westerner, that does not mean that all the information is invalid.

    Once again please forgive me if I have offended and I hope that someone more experienced and senior can chime in with their opinion on this article.
    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
     
  9. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    If I said "during my JKD the ghost of Bruce Lee assured me I was doing the right thing" then my story would not be credible

    If I say " I was hit with a live blade and not cut" then there are two possibilities

    1) it's a fib

    Or

    2)it is a massive exaggeration and similar to the test of courage you ascribe it too. This is not hitting someone with a blade; it is testing them with a prop. It is also nothing to do with special training and is entirely at the whim of the person with the tool.

    So there is nothing actually that impressive about it

    Now with a critical filter you can still glean some value from the article, but such information is soured by the dubious reference. If that is suspect then what else is? Hence the article is not so much dismissed as devalued
     
  10. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    And lets also dispense this "educated western mind" nonsense. It is intellectually ridiculous to talk about this unless you mean "doesn't believe any old nonsense jut because he is told it"

    The western mind is just a rife with examples of superstition and credulity - and most of the myths of the oriental styles are perpetuated by so called westerners
     
  11. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    Two things concern me about this:

    1) Being "hit" with a blade, to me, suggests that a blade was brought to bear on your person in the way in which a blade is intended to be used. "Intent" being something of a hot-button topic here. So I don't really see how you could be "hit" with a blade without damage. "Threatened," sure. But not hit.

    2) Learning trust that your teacher can do these things without hurting you doesn't seem to correlate very directly to the desired outcome: An understanding of how dire the situation is if you're being attacked with a blade with intent. I don't want to develop a level of trust in the guy with the blade. I'd rather use a training blade (something that will still create an awareness, to include pain or not, that I'd have been cut badly with the real thing) and a training partner who I DON'T trust to pull his punches.
     
  12. Khatami

    Khatami Valued Member

    Dear Sirs,
    I must apologise it seems that we are talking here at cross-purposes insofar as although we are using a common language, we are, as the locals here say, like ducks talking to chickens.
    I'm afraid I've been over here too long and confused Malaysian silat with western approaches to the art.
    I realised this when I saw the comment about Bruce Lee appearing in a dream. Over here that would be regarded as being a wonderful sign, and, in fact, whole systems of silat have been developed from dreams.
    Sorry to have taken up your time.
    If anyone is interested in the silat experience in Malaysia please do not hesitate to contact me.
    Best wishes
    Nigel Sutton
     
  13. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Khatami, don't apologise at all. It's good to have someone actually living there and training it to have a viewpoint on it.

    Although most people in the west practice silat in a different way (some of the critical people don't even train silat), i'm not one of the people to dismiss your experiences. I know it can be real.

    Although i practice West-javanese silat, malaysian silat has a lot of similarities. Especially when it comes to training the mental part.

    So please stay for a bit. Some of the guys are just plain blunt, others are ok, in the end, you just believe where you believe in.

    Good luck with your training. I read some of your stuff on your blog, it seems you are practicing some valid martial arts over there! Sounds cool!
     
  14. ap Oweyn

    ap Oweyn Ret. Supporter

    I agree wholeheartedly with taoizt on this point, Khatami. The fact that there's disagreement on certain points should NEVER be interpreted as a sign to leave. Just the opposite. GOOD debate is a sign of a thriving topic. So let's keep it respectful, even when we disagree. As someone somewhere once said, "if you and I agree on everything, one of us is unnecessary."
     
  15. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    That is not what I said - read it again

    But I too have to echo the sentiments about staying; there is no growth in comfort and it is always good to have another viewpoint. Often as not there is commonality of approach discovered and it is the labels that need changing
     
  16. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Problem is, since Silat has a rather esoteric side, a lot of westerners will call it b.s. or want to see proof of mentioned feats. Funny actually since a lot of westerners believe in the bible which is filled with esoteric stories.
    But anyway that's a whole different discussion.

    I've seen the added value of silat in training, and that was after i went looking for JKD, Krav Maga and believed in all the 'use the best of multiple styles and combine them into one' slogan that is so prevalent right now. I seen and felt silat, and since then...never looked back to that previous period.

    I train 1 traditional style and from there try to find answers for every type of situation.

    For other people it might be their way to mix and match, but for me surely not..
     
  17. Hannibal

    Hannibal Cry HAVOC and let slip the Dogs of War!!! Supporter

    Esotericism in combat theory I can half-buy...but if I hit you with a golok all the mysticism in the world won't stop your arm falling off
     
  18. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Beyond it's tendency to make you uncritical there's nothing wrong with esotericism per se, and as I've said before if your interest is exploration of Indo-Malay warrior culture then that's fine, but you can't confuse it with combat efficacy.
    Anyway, nice explanation of the issues by Burton Richardson
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdjkFKjZPDI"]Functional Silat Introduction - YouTube[/ame]
    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6iRC5LJeJU"]Silat 3 Part Fight Plan - YouTube[/ame]
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  19. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Funny..i've just had a seminar with one of the main teachers of Burton Richardson :)
     
  20. taoizt

    taoizt Valued Member

    Nice explanations by Burton Richardson, although he makes some errors in this.
    He talks about the 'pencak' and the 'silat' and terms like 'buah' which are explained in a way which is certainly not valid for all indonesian and malaysian fighting arts named 'pencak silat'.

    In Holland refering to 'pentjak' and 'pentjakkers' was rarely talking about the flowery bits, but the raw, crude and nasty bits. A well known pentjakker was usually someone known for effective skills reminiscent of the more modern Krav Maga counterparts.

    The whole more flowery counterparts is not frequently seen, especially for west-javanese styles like Cimande, Cikalong, Maenpo Peupeuhan and Sera . It was mainly about the 'bela diri' aspects. Much has changed however since the 1950's sadly.


    But i do agree with training against uncooperative opponents and that pencak silat should be trained realistically.

    In my style we prefer to call ourselves Pukulan and not Pencak Silat, mainly because nowadays people know Pencak Silat as a more flowery dance than an effective fighting art.
     

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