What is to blame ? The art, the teacher or the training ? I've been in deep thought lately about the south east Asian Martial arts, specifically the arts of kuntao and Silat. I notice most peoples opinion, especially from the mma guys is that Silat is worthless and a dead art stuck in dead patterns. before I even started my studies in kuntao/Silat I always favored what worked and what is grounded In reality so these perspectives got me thinking critically about Silats training, tactics & principles. One thing i agree with from the critics is that MANY Silat systems fail to move past dead patterns and drill type excercises. *learning how to apply the techniques in real time on a resisting opponent is of extreme importance otherwise you are just fooling yourself, it seems pretty obvious but yet it seems most overlook or outright ignore this simple truth. In doing this I believe we figure out what works for US as individual practitioners and gain confidence in our ability to implement our learned strategy and technique. I believe that there is no such thing as useless techniques, Rather certain techniques lend themselves to different unique body types and fighting attributes better than others or the understanding of the context and use of the technique has been lost or distorted. Which is Another reason why stress testing/sparring is important, figuring out what works best for YOU and how to make the principles/techniques work in combat. The warrior spirit The question in my mind is IF the arts useless or impractical how has the ancient arts survived hundreds perhaps, thousands of years of vicious and brutal tribal warfare, invading countries as well as surviving through the ages amongst other fighting arts ? Something doesn't add up in my mind, which tells me there's a problem with the training, teachers or students themselves rather than the art. Has something been lost along the way ? If so, what ? One theory I have pondered is whether what has Changed is the mindstate of people in general. Being that we live in a modern "civilized" society, we call on those such as soldiers and police officers to handle the nasty business most of us would rather turn our heads to or downright fear. The "warrior mindstate" is something most people lack in this present age for a variety of reasons that are obvious, since the average person rarely deals with extreme violence or combat situations of course the warriors way of thinking is never groomed or realized in the average civilized person. *it's important to remember the times and conditions of the people who practiced this art, this I believe can give us insight into our own training and path in Silat. It provides a context for which to veiw and approach the art properly. The people who practiced Silat were those who truly needed it, it wasn't a hobby, it was to survive and to protect their villages and families. These people knew life and death could truly be around the corner. As such I believe these people had the mindstate that they will protect themeselves, their families and community at any cost, including there own lives. They literally practiced this art like their very lives depended on it because it did !* True life and death combat is the true test of a fighter. In the volatile times the pesilat lived in there were many oppurtunities to put there skill and knowledge to the test unlike today. I believe they accepted that death is always a possibility but didn't fear it. This I think is one the keys to truly being able to utilize lethal and brutal arts like Silat. Having that killer instinct and mental conditioning, which most of us just don't have is of extreme importance. It's no easy task to overcome the fear of having to overcome a man waving around a sharp blade Or breaking someone arms or legs or shoving your fingers into someone eyes.* These aren't things the average person is accustomed to even thinking about much less doing to another human being. And even if it were so how do we practice such tactics being that we are living in a society without bandits, invaders and wars to fight on a frequent basis ? How do we sharpen or test these skills that were created to maim and kill ? How do we develop the warrior outlook and the mental conditioning needed to not just fight but to fight effectively using what you have learned. I've heard people say Silat and other arts goes to pieces and look like sloppy mma when trained live. I think this really reflects a lack of mental solitude and focus as well as lack of proper training both mental and physical. Being able to control our emotions whether it be fear, anger ect. in conflict is of extreme difficulty but also of extreme importance. The moment we lose focus and (self)control in combat is the moment we have begun to lose. i think this point is especially so with such an intricate art as kuntao or silat. These are some things I have been thinking about and would like to throw these ideas out there and see what my fellow martial artists have to say on the subject * * ** ** Is the art to blame for it ineffectiveness Or is it the teachers and students who have failed in realizing the arts potential ? What do you think is the solution to bringing life and functionality to kuntao/Silat ?
I've seen a lot of silat, and other traditional arts, look awful used to actually fight with: wild punches, poor footwork, and 'tagging' - lunging in to land a single blow and then jumping back out again. As far as whether a system being any good or not is concerned, I think it's obvious that Dumb Fu, where practitioners stand with their backs to the opponent and attempt to headbutt him with their temples, is obviously 'worse' than Hoo What, where practitioners punch and kick. Obviously some 'techniques' are a better idea than others! However, I think the vast majority of systems are unsystematic. I read an interview with Royce Gracie about ten years ago where he was talking about MMA/BJJ trainers and saying, 'you took this guy, taught him some moves and he won a fight. But so what, the guy was already tough! The challenge is to take someone weak, like a kid or a woman, and make them tough.' Leaving aside Royce's sexism here, I think he's right. Martil artists are a self-selecting group: we chose to be here, and not because beating people up looked like a career, to most of us anyway. So we need a more systematic way of getting some hardship to be toughened, without abuse, unwarranted danger or just becoming nutcase thugs. I think the core of silat is very similar to Thai boxing. Yet Thai boxing regularly produces the scariest fighters. Why? Lots of GUIDED sparring - pad sparring, or sparring for attribute development, as well as free sparring. Lots of IMPACT TRAINING. Why do Thai boxers kick so hard? Because they do the most effective form of force development training, the same one Olympic lifters use: high volume, high intensity. So when they're distracted they still kick hard. Lots of TRAINING. Casual, amateur Thai boxers will often train 2 or 3 sessions a week of 2 or 3 hours, plus some gym or road time and maybe a bag session or two. If they're fighters they'll often train far more than this. Thai pros train 6 hours a day, 6 days a week. I'm not saying 'Thai boxing 1, everything else 0.' I'm saying, we should look at training methods we can use and use them. None of us would refuse to drive to a class because it wasn't traditional, so why should we ignore new developments? Constantly changing and improving IS traditional silat anyway. The final point is that it's the internal aspects of silat that make it dangerous. And if we're not learning them we're not doing silat. Eddie Quinn, self-protection coach and enthusiastic Thai boxer besides being a seriously good persilat, says on his website that good silat players hit the hardest and are the most scary fighters out of anyone he's ever trained with, and that goes with my experience (much more limited than his). People say, it's the individual, then the training method, then the system. But the system should be about changing the individual, and the training method and the system are functionally identical. That's why the karate you can see in the mall or the village hall looks so different from those old black and white videos of Funakoshi sensei. Long post = too much coffee.
i think you need to train any art as if death could be just round the corner, im not very experienced at all only been training about 18 months but when i train alone i imagine every aspect of what im doing to someone, maybe its how i grew up and my personal experiences, but ive met some peole who just seem to be going through the motions, i wouldnt say they were "soft" exactly maybe "not 100% there"
Still the big difference between most Silat and MMA is they have a different focus. For me personally would be bad to change the Silat training to an MMA type training where Jurus no longer play any role and you just focus on weight training and 80% of the time in sparring with gloves on and other types of protection (like shin protectors) I respect MMA for what it is but also respect Silat for it's different view on things (or for that matter any SEA type training). Yes, we can learn some from the MMA training methods, but when you switch over to full MMA-type training with some Silat moves in it, better call it MMA alltogether. I don't focus on strength training (like MMA frequently does), why? Because it's not part of the tactics of the Silat I train. And also I prefer to focus on technical ability since that stays longer with a person (way past his 50's) whilst strength, flexibility and toughness gradually deteriorate when you get older. This doesn't mean however you should not train contact and working with a resisting opponent, you just have to go at it in a smart way. You see a lot of guys in MMA or Thaiboxing having rockhard training, not caring about broken shins, ruptured organs or damaged eyes, which is cool, but beyond 50 your body pays the toll of having abused the body that long.
...been messing around with thai martial arts since the late 1980s...muay thai, older muay styles etc...been playing around with systems of silat last couple of years... muay thai is a basic to intermediate system. and this is from someone who considers himself primarily a 'thai' stylist. the beauty of muay thai is that it's quite easy to use and learn. because of the way it is trained and taught...and because of it's natural footwork etc. The older muay systems such as muay chiaya share more in common with silat... the thing about silat and kuntao is if you want to get good at them you must understand they're systems based on essential principles...which you must understand and 'see' in your practice...more so than any other system so far encountered by myself. and finally...you understand i'm sure that any martial arts or combat systems is trying to impose a lesser or greater degree of order - idealism - on what is essentially chaos. Silat is attempting to impose order upon a blade aware-blade conscious engagement whilst dealing with the concept of multiple enemies. mma - also trained in a bit by myself is not for the same purpose. although i would gladly use mma training methods in my silat. as resistance helps qualify all... good luck
What do you have against shin protectors? I don't understand your second paragraph. MMA doesn't focus on strength training at all, however the training of MMA athletes does because A) they're athletes B) MMA fights are hard work C) all other things being equal, the stronger man usually wins and D) a good strength and conditioning program protects you from injury, and makes you more likely to still be able to do stuff when you're 50. Strength training is not instead of technique training, it's supplemental training. Your last statement is bizarre. You've clearly not actually seen a lot of guys in MMA, and I've seen far more of such injuries in TMA classes (hell, I've twice broken bones doing forms!).
- What I have against shin protectors? Apart from sparring type training, you need to feel what it feels like on your shins. You need to train in a smart way (not just mindless hardening of the shins), also without protectors. It's a bit the same as with always training with boxing gloves. You need to train you bare fist as well or else you will break your hand as soon as you hit on the streets. - You mention the stronger man usually wins. Now that is nice but why then train a traditional martial art like Silat, which is NOT based on strength? - Never did any strength and conditioning programs, but i'm most certain that i will train this past 50 and my skill is still growing and seen plenty of people doing this. You look at it from a more 'martial sports' perspective, which is nice, but it is something different. I'm not saying it is bad but mainly when you want to win a fight with plenty of stamina and strength. I prefer the way where I win in a tactical and technical way. Sure i could condition myself to be fitter than a guy from 20 years old but I have no illusions that i will stay stronger and fitter than such a young guy once i get older... Strength might be supplemental training yes, but for me now it feels counter productive since i need more technical ability and relaxation to get things done....not strength. About damaging your body. You see plenty of guys in for instance kickboxing that train at higher competition level that frequently have to go to surgery to fix problems with the knees, ankles, shins etc. A lot of guys doing any serious level of thaixboxing will have problems with parts of their bodies (as with a lot of top-level sports by the way like gymnasts and soccer players). I'm not that familiar with MMA but from BJJ I also frequently here about a number of recurring issues.
- What I have against shin protectors? Apart from sparring type training, you need to feel what it feels like on your shins. You need to train in a smart way (not just mindless hardening of the shins), also without protectors. It's a bit the same as with always training with boxing gloves. You need to train you bare fist as well or else you will break your hand as soon as you hit on the streets. - You mention the stronger man usually wins. Now that is nice but why then train a traditional martial art like Silat, which is NOT based on strength? - Never did any strength and conditioning programs, but i'm most certain that i will train this past 50 and my skill is still growing and seen plenty of people doing this. You look at it from a more 'martial sports' perspective, which is nice, but it is something different. I'm not saying it is bad but mainly when you want to win a fight with plenty of stamina and strength. I prefer the way where I win in a tactical and technical way. Sure i could condition myself to be fitter than a guy from 20 years old but I have no illusions that i will stay stronger and fitter than such a young guy once i get older... Strength might be supplemental training yes, but for me now it feels counter productive since i need more technical ability and relaxation to get things done....not strength. About damaging your body. You see plenty of guys in for instance kickboxing that train at higher competition level that frequently have to go to surgery to fix problems with the knees, ankles, shins etc. A lot of guys doing any serious level of thaixboxing will have problems with parts of their bodies (as with a lot of top-level sports by the way like gymnasts and soccer players). I'm not that familiar with MMA but from BJJ I also frequently here about a number of recurring issues.
Shinguards are primarily for the protection of your training partners. While clashing shins is unpleasant it's nothing compared to taking a hard shin to the thigh or liver, or even a moderate shin to the face. Shin conditioning is important, but it's much more efficient to specifically condition your shins than rely on a couple of clashes each class to somehow do it. This is even more true for hands. You cannot punch your training partners hard enough or often enough to condition your hands. Barehanded pad striking drills are the way to do it (indeed, this is the traditional method). I said all things being equal the stronger man wins. If he's trained in traditional martial arts (although I will say that training good body mechanics and use of vectors is not the same as not being based on strength) to a similar standard then he will probably win. It is also much easier to yield, relax and maintain your structure if you're stronger. No, I always want to win a fight through rapid application of superior skill with minimal effort, however this relies on a skill disparity between me and an opponent. As such in competitive fighting where barring mismatches skill levels are equivalent physical and psychological factors come into play. Also, again the better shape you are in the easier it is to perform skilled movements. Yin and Yang, even relaxed movements need muscular power in the legs and core. Remember most people at MMA and Muay Thai gyms don't fight competitively, obviously competing in a high impact contact sport carries a high risk of injury. However for general training, these injuries are just as prevalent (if not more so) in TMA groups. The difference being that in the MMA gyms they come back after the surgery, whereas in TMA schools they just drop out of the class after they're injured and you never see them again.
Gloves allow you to train for longer. Put simply someone who trains with gloves gets more practise in, so when it comes to the bare knuckle they will hit harder and more effectively than the person who has been forced to shorten their training time. No, he mentioned the stronger man wins when all other factors are equal.. That implies that by comparison, things like BJJ ARE based on strength which is ridiculous. Nonsense, all fighters want to win in the most efficient way possible, which is the tactical and technical way. The way utilised by any decent competitive fighter. Conversely, there is no point ignoring your strength and conditioning. Strength =/= tense. Competitive fighters need technical ability, relaxation as well as good strength. And these are high end fighters who fight regularly against very dangerous opponents. Years of combat at that level will take its toll. You also have to understand when an Thai Fighter mentions he has shoulder problems, this usually means "Shoulder Problems which prevent me from competing at such a high level" not "Shoulder problems that will prevent me from training ever again.
Well guys although you have some point there, we have to agree to disagree. Training just with gloves and not too much with bareknuckles doesn't automatically make you a better hitter. Gloves have some distinct disadvantages, like not 'feeling' the hit with the knuckles, not having to align the knuckles as strictly as should. It even requires different timing. So...yes it definitely has benifits, but it's not all positive. As far as shin protection goes, sure i want to be able to handle to eat one or two big shin lowkicks in a fight, but wearing pads and being able to handle a protected shin for minutes and minutes to me seems useless if i'm not in a ring. Or even being able to give one good shin to the thigh or knee, actually the fight should be over, or at least the guy should struggle for a bit with the pain and buy me some time. On the street, again i'm not fighting a pro ThaiBoxer, I fight a guy who wants to hurt me and then moves on. BJJ is about relaxation also yes, definitely, but still the tactics of a general bjj match is very different from what i would prefer to use on the street. Do I want to lay on the ground and fight with a guy for minutes so that i can use my stamina? Hell no, I want to focus my fighting abilities on finishing a fight in seconds not minutes. So thats where my training hours are focussed on. On these first couple of seconds. And a lot happens then. I know what you guys are saying and i've met and trained with some decent competition fighters but silat was never meant for the ring, as corny as that may sound, it's true. If you want to be good at competition fighting, by all means, join a boxing, thaiboxing or mma club. As soon as people get that one good hook to the chin, blow to the liver etc. It should be over (or make sure you hit a couple of times more) and if not...RUN! And yes...in that case, i could use some stamina...
Taoizt, you seem to be operating under the assumption that it's an either-or proposition. Equipment training fills in some blanks that jurus don't. It's not as though muay thai stylists, for instance, wear shin guards all the time. They wear shin guards for certain precise, calculated purposes. And they go without them for different precise, calculated purposes.
False dichotomy There is no excuse for not applying sparring and protective equipment in training in order to make it realistic yet safe. If you cannot hit with a jab you certainly cannot hit with anything more esoteric It's a crock to say "not meant for the ring" - nor is pretty much everything I do; but I am honest enough to see that the pressure you get from "mere sport" style training is superior. Edit: Ap got in first It's also not a case of "wanting to roll on the ground" - that decision may be made for you.
Just this Saturday I went to an Iain Abernethy seminar where the warm up was some controlled clinch/grip fighting where eye gouges (thumb to forehead), groin grabs (grab the belt knot), throat grabs (web of hand placed on throat) and bites (snap the teeth near the face) were signified. And a fun time was had by all.
Hmmm well think of it what you may think of it guys, but i'm not training some unrealistic type of silat and just doing Seni. I did all the sparring stuff in my previous style but now....just very specific BelaDiri. It's nice that you guys find new ways of using modern methods but the old indo's (and indonesians) here in Holland seemed to cope quite well without any of that. And yes, also against big strong dutch guys used to Judo, Kickboxing and Karate. But yes, the arguments you have are becoming the general rule for calling something effective and realistic and calling another opinion using false dichotomy. I know that. Just wonder what the old masters would think about this (and yes they did exist) From that perspective i try to train old style silat (no fluff) and 'fight' against all the modern thoughts people might have against the fluffly dance moves people know about Silat. For me silat is not about sparring and strength, it's about ending the fight super quickly and effiently with the least amount of strength. If that means squeezing someones balls than so be it..
And you assume I don't because....? Where did I say sparring = fight or strength = effectiveness? Where did ANYONE say that? You HAVE created a false dichotomy because it is not one or other; Silt has plenty of methods that are akin to sparring...the problem I suspect is you hav a myopic definition of what "sparring" actually is Nothing you do in Silat training methods (not technique per se) is different than any other style...except lots also add sparring
if you sometimes train for fighting application and sometimes train sparring, what do you think your body is going to do in a situation on the street? I understand now what you mean by false dichotomy, thanks, but if you sometimes spar, sometimes train bela diri, sometimes do strength training your time is getting split in three. Add to that some seni, weapons training and perhaps even spiritual stuff and time flies! I prefer to just focus on bela diri and some specific drills that train application AND conditioning AND a bit of stamina. It saves me the time from having to do specific kettlebell drills, long hours of running or whatever to train certain attributes all split in different training schedules. Perhaps i'm writing things down here a bit too black and white, and i'm sorry for that, i'm just saying there is also another side of the medal...namely. Silat in all it's principles, subtleties, tactics and refinement. Hell I don't have time for all of this other stuff even though i liked that stuff as well in the past (like sparring) Sure you could do the stuff all you guys are hinting at, but does it make you a better silat player? Not necessarily. And yes probably there are several ways of sparring. What comes to my mind is 'gearing up' and training for a couple of rounds with semi or full contact where you give eachother the chance to make certain combinations. you do some bobbing and weaving, take some blows, give some hits back. The timer goes and the sparring is finished. And if you are happy, you might get in a scissors kick or reverse spinning kick to make it more 'silat' like... Perhaps I need to learn some new ways of sparring ....
Totality in combat is beyond any single art and training method. How do you drill firearms in your style? Retention? Deployment? If you are doing "art for arts sake" then there is no case to be made for changing it - but you are essentially claiming it is for "fighting" and so you are widening the scope. That's why you are being challenged on an erroneous assumption. It is not about being a "better Silat player"...it's about combat. And the methods you decry have inherent advantages that excluding them does not
Taoizt, I'm not a big fan of the debate tactic you're currently using. You're constructing an exaggerated version of what's been said to you because it's easier to debate that version (as you'd expect it would be with any gross exaggeration) than to debate what's actually being said to you. It's fine for you to train however you want to train. You don't need anyone's permission to do so. But please don't mischaracterize alternate views to your own.
This is one of those arguments that looks better on paper than in real life. You can train for fighting application. But training is still an abstraction, just as sparring is. You can't make the argument that people who spar are going to be so locked into that mindset that it's impossible to break out of it in an actual encounter AND maintain that your own training allows you to do so at will. You're not actually biting people, stabbing people, or kicking people full force in the crackers, either. So what do you think your body is going to do in a situation on the street? Your training is a simulation. Nothing more. That's true of everyone's training. So it's folly to suggest that one form of training leaves you easily capable of escaping its limitations in an actual scrap, where the other form of training leaves you robotically adhering to its rules even in a real fight.
