Silat is a weapons art first...

Discussion in 'Silat' started by pakarilusi, Aug 3, 2011.

  1. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    well you'll have to excuse me if I don't believe claims that are made without any evidence to support. You haven't managed to convince me about Silat's effectiveness as a weapons or unarmed art, one way or the other.

    Why are you arguing against that position in this thread? No one in this thread is arguing that position.

    Look. You want to talk trash about the UFC and MMA, go right ahead. Just don't pretend you aren't. You don't like the attitude of UFC fighters and fans, and MMA practitioners, fine. Come out and say it, but don't pretend to hide behind this "I'm a civil gentlemen" crap when you are on a forum trash talking MMA practitioners and UFC fans and fighters.

    I have strong opinions too and I'm not afraid of voicing them. I'm also not afraid of what people think of me.

    Ok I'll bite on your little jab. What is "The Martial Spirit?"
     
  2. nasigoreng

    nasigoreng Valued Member

    I see the character of PS not as exclusively weapon-oriented or empty-hand, but as strategies for weaker individuals to persevere against an attacker with some advantage: either physically stronger, using a weapon, multiple attackers, etc...In this sense, I consider it a self-defense art, and like other self-defense arts, it includes counters to grabs, punches, kicks, and weapons.

    Is there's a bit of a false dichotomy here? Why can't people do both bela-diri (self-defense) and some kind of sparring (boxing, MMA, TKD)? The point is to practice the principles and techniques under pressure so the practitioners can refine their skills.

    The beauty of MMA is that it well rounded having punching, kicks, and grappling. So, if you can pull of a kali-silat move in that situation, you can have a high degree of confidence the technique will work under pressure.

    Although it may not be "true to its nature" to practice Silat in a sport modality, that type of training would improve the practitioner's attributes (speed, timing, reflexes) for self-defense applications, so I think it's worthwhile.

    this is my point exactly, DBMA real-contact stickfighting is like sparring, or competitive MMA, not self-defense, which is what they present in [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvF_iDurNEk"]"Die Less Often"[/ame].

    I attached the KaliTudo clip to show that Kali-Silat principles can be effective in an MMA modality. it just takes lots of research and training.
     
  3. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Hmm... Strange that you think I want to bash the UFC or MMA... (My favourite fighter is Lyoto Machida btw... )

    I bring it up as others around me always use as that as the yardstick against Silat.

    I really feel that it is like comparing BJJ to Modern Fencing. You don't get my point on this? You may not agree though, but that's fine...

    I would NOT be practicing BJJ if I thought that that MMA approach was totally ineffective.

    It might seem naive or cliche to you but as a life long practitioner of Silat, I really do believe in that "I'm a civil gentlemen crap", as you put it so eloquently... Sorry if this dissapoints you.

    I too don't really care about what most people think about me, except those I care about, my loved ones. Their opinions of me do matter. :)

    "The Martial Spirit", wow... That's a whole thread. I would sum it up with the practices you see in Kendo, a beautiful approach to a weapon Art imho...


    Nasigoreng, that is a great post. I really feel that the Dogbrothers approach is not usual approach taken by Silat practitioners... Not that it is wrong, just that we don't approach it that way. Maybe it should be. Regardless, they're very effective though.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  4. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    You assigned negative qualities to "MMA and UFC" insinuating that it's practitioners are uncivil and have lost the Martial Spirit. I don't think you want to bash "MMA and UFC." You said it. It's a fact.

    Back to "Martial Spirit" - if you don't know what it is, how can you make the claim that "MMA and UFC" have lost it?

    I don't see many of the Kendo practices in Silat. Does that mean that Kendo has "Martial Spirit" and Silat doesn't?

    Also, where do you train BJJ? Who is your coach?
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  5. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Wow, saying that they've lost a bit of the Martial Spirit is bashing the WHOLE of MMA and the UFC? You sure do see the world in black and white yah?

    I will be the first to say that I've met a lot of Silat practitioners who have lost the Martial Spirit, that means I'm bashing the whole of Silat? Hmmm....

    I know what the Martial Spirit is, just wanted to give you a point of reference that would be easier to look up.It is too long to explain here. Just because you don't see those practices in Silat (that you see in Kendo) that does not mean it is not there. It is NOT in the fighting methods btw... Techniques will always be different, thus creating the myriad of styles that we now have. Martial Spirit should stay the same.

    My BJJ Coach(es) in Malaysia? First was Adam Kayoom, here... He's in the States now quite a bit...

    http://www.bjjheroes.com/bjj-fighters/adam-shahir-kayoom

    http://www.karate-shotokan-kata.com/Adam-Kayoom.html

    Now, I train here, under Marcos Escobar...

    http://www.escobarbjj.com/blog/

    http://www.escobarbjj.com/bio.php

    Both incredibly nice guys btw... ;)
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  6. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    Awesome!

    Keep up the good work!


    No - that's what YOU are saying - let's go back and check what you said:

    You are saying that the UFC has a negative image, and that you would not want Silat to have that same negative image, but would prefer it to have the image of a "polite gentlemen's art." Inferring that MMA is not a "polite gentlemen's art."

    I disagree with you on that point sir. I believe MMA to be a "polite gentlemen's art" practiced by polite gentlemen such as myself.

    So first you are saying that you lump all of MMA and UFC into one pile that has lost the Martial Spirit, but then you say that your comments about Silat practitioners not having Martial Spirit isn't applicable to all of Silat? Why the double standard?

    Well if you know what Martial Spirit is, explain it to me. Everyone has a different definition of what Martial Spirit is, so you are going to have to explain it to me if you want to have a reasonable discussion on whether "MMA and UFC" and Silat have "Martial Spirit."
     
  7. nasigoreng

    nasigoreng Valued Member

    three words kawan: tradition, tradition, tradition. Silat, for many is not just self-defense, but cultural inheritance. so, many feel it's inappropriate to cross-train or train openly.
     
  8. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Ahhh... It has now become a discussion of Martial Spirit I see...

    By my definition, in a nutshell, it is first, the ability to practice Martial Arts at the highest intensity without showing disrespect to your "opponent" (in reality only your "training partner"). Second, to keep "the bigger picture" in mind of what Martial Art training is about, how it not only affects you but society at large (especially if it is a spectator sport).

    For this reason, I say that some in MMA and the UFC have lost this Martial Spirit. Talking down to your opponent is normal, but this goes against the first rule. Feuds being highlighted is also normal, and this goes against the second rule (especially bad since kids and teenagers are some of the fans). The prevailing attitude seems to be this in the UFC, at least from my point of view.

    Some just call it "hyped up marketing", well that may be true as the conflict does bring in more viewers. More viewers mean more money (and the Martial Spirit is the first thing to go out the door when more money comes in!).

    Again, I am NOT saying that all the fighters are disrespectful but the business model doesn't help. They love to play up the "bad-blood-score-to-settle"-angle for the pay-per-view crowd.

    While I can understand it with boxing and pro wrestling, I wish with Mixed Martial Arts the Martial Spirit would prevail. But alas...

    I bring up Kendo because you are not allowed to be condescending. Or even celebrate overtly after scoring a point. It would be totally out of the norm to hear of any Kendo match billed as a "grudge match". I am sure there are some bad apples in Kendo (as in anything), but they would be the exception to the rule.

    It is this Martial Spirit that makes the difference between a "polite gentlemen's art" and a brute sport. (And I am sure you are a gentleman Yohan. :) )

    It is also the reason why you don't see me say anything bad about The Dogbrother's training because they hold on to this (by their creed) quite strongly.

    It is not the intensity of the training that dictates this, it is in the intention of the training.

    Well, at least to me.

    Feel free to disagree. ;)




    Anyway,
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2011
  9. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    You're right sahabat. ;)

    Tradition is a double-edged Keris. :)
     
  10. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    So by your definition, Martial Spirit means having respect for your training partners, and presenting your art such that it retains the best public perception possible.

    First off - how does the demeanor and behavior of an MMA athlete in a competitive environment have anything to do with having respect for training partners? Have you been to their gyms and seen how they interact with their training partners? No, so how can you legitimately make the claim that MMA practitioners and UFC athletes have lost the Martial Spirit in that regard.

    Second off - how does the behavior of one athlete affect the reputation of MMA as a whole, when each athlete practices a variety of arts that are different from athlete to athlete. So why does one athlete who trains jiu jutsu and acts like a slob affect another athlete's reputation who primarily trains Muay Thai and acts like a gentleman?

    Because people are too ignorant to see what each athlete trains and put back his crap attitude on his school or his coach instead of "UFC and MMA." Because people can't tell the difference between the marketing tactics employed by an individual promotion, and the behavior and activity of people who train MMA.

    Like I said, just because nickelback has crappy music, doesn't make the blues style of guitar playing bad.

    Well in this case the money is helping to develop highly skilled stables of fighters all over the world, who train hard and fight harder and continually push up the bar on Martial Arts skill. So in this case, I'd say the money is increasing the Martial Spirit and the aggregate skill of the practitioners. Large, international promotions have only increased the quality of schools and the Martial Spirit of it's practitioners.

    So you are not saying that all UFC atheletes and MMA practitioners have lost the "Martial Spirit", but that some fighters have lost the "Martial Spirit." That I can agree with.

    Why can you "understand it with boxing?" Are you saying that boxing has lost the Martial Spirit?

    And that's why it will never be an international sport, funneling money and attention onto the practitioners to increase their skills by leaps and bounds.

    A brute sport. Is that how you would describe the UFC?

    So are you saying that the UFC is a "brute sport," but dog brothers fights are not brutish?
     
  11. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    You misunderstand me Yohan.

    The fighters, for as long as they have respect for their training partners, including their opponent in the ring/octagon/cage have the Martial Spirit. Regardless of their Arts.

    My point is that the organization itself (the company) promotes this "feud oriented marketing". Gudge match this, grudge match that. For as long the fighter himself is not affected, fine. However, from what I see, the fighter's love to play it up too. Talking "smack" about their opponent (ala Muhammad Ali, which is why I brought up boxing) at their Press Conferences has become a norm. Respect is not shown on purpose. They want to show the "animosity".

    The problem is this, it seem to permeate almost all of MMA, as they want the "hype". This is the norm in Boxing from the time of Muhammad Ali, maybe even before.

    The Martial Spirit is just not there.

    I said "I bring up Kendo because you are not allowed to be condescending. Or even celebrate overtly after scoring a point. It would be totally out of the norm to hear of any Kendo match get billed as a "grudge match". I am sure there are some bad apples in Kendo (as in anything), but they would be the exception to the rule."

    You then said "And that's why it will never be an international sport, funneling money and attention onto the practitioners to increase their skills by leaps and bounds."

    If that is the price to be paid, I am sure Kendokas (and Silat players) would rather be "small time". It's okay, you can keep your money and attention.

    Again, you miss my point on the "brute sport". Any Martial Art can drop to that level if it loses its Martial Spirit.

    It is not in the "intensity" that makes an MMA or a Dogbrother's match "a brute sport" or not. It is in the respect that is shown in the whole exercise. A Silat match can become a brute sport if the proper etiquette and respect (The Martial Spirit) is not shown.

    I really don't know how to explain this any clearer.


    And we have gone off topic in this thread. :)
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  12. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    I don't understand.

    What does having respect for training partners have to do with having respect for your opponents? It seems like you are putting them in the same ball park. You can't really do that. Are you really going to lump the guys at your gym into the same pile as a guy who tries to knife you for your wallet? Are you going to respect that guy?

    What does this have to do with MMA as a whole? We have a bunch of people who do different arts with varying levels of respect. So what are you claiming about MMA practitioners regarding the level of respect they have for their training partners and opponents?

    Ok, so what does the UFC's marketing campaign have to do with MMA? Like I said - rock concert compared to the blues style of playing the guitar.

    I trained MMA for years. Are you saying that I don't respect my training partners in the gym?

    And our skill, and our physical prowess, and the pride of doing something that has been proven time and time again in an adverse environment. That's what I'll take.

    So are you making the claim that MMA is a "brute sport?"
     
  13. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Need to go to sleep now guys... Early morning here now... :)

    Later yah!
     
  14. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    And here I was just going to sleep. :)

    My point is that your opponent in your fight also deserves the respect you give your training partner. You don't talk smack about your opponent in your fight. That's the Martial Spirit.

    My other point is that MMA as a whole has adopted Boxing's hyped up Marketing style, focusing on the "feuds" and "grudge match" attitude. The problem is that it affects not just the players but also the kids and teens watching. To sell tickets, they had to adopt the "pro wrestling" type of Marketing and Advertising. Well then, respect and etiquette takes a back seat.

    You're saying a Kendoka could not use his skills under duress? Hmm...

    How do I make myself clear on this "brute sport" thing?

    ALL Martial Arts training can become just a "brute sport" IF it doesn't have The Martial Spirit in its practice.

    MMA can, TKD can, BJJ can, Silat can, Karate can, Kalari Payat can (etc.) IF they don't inculcate The Martial Spirit...

    I was not singling out MMA... It is a concept subject to context and perspective bro...

    Anyway, later yah... ;)
     
  15. Yohan

    Yohan In the Spirit of Yohan Supporter

    No, that's bloody human decency. It has nothing to do with Martial Arts or Martial Spirit.

    So? They aren't selling respect and etiquette. They are selling fighting and violence! Since when was respect and etiquette part of the equation? Once again - what do these marketing promotions have to do with the Martial Arts that the athletes that compete in them?

    See that statement? It's a blatant lie. Just one page ago, you said:

    Why are you lying about what you said when it's written down? What is your deal?

    You come on here talking about how your art is a "proper gentleman's art" and that you believe in all that "proper gentleman stuff," but the first thing you do is come on here and talk down about other peoples art, attempting to put yourself above those that practice and enjoy that art. You talk down about promotions that other people enjoy, attempting to put the sporting presentation of your art above a promotion that other people enjoy. Then you lie when you get called on it.

    That's what I call hypocritical. Way to represent your art - by lying, by displaying hypocrisy, and by denigrating other hard working well meaning Martial Artists. Go Silat.
     
  16. pakarilusi

    pakarilusi Valued Member

    Bro, I see that there is no convincing you as your emotional outburst is showing. And it is telling.

    Mature people don't resort to attacking the person in an argument, they debate the argument.

    Look back at this thread in a few months with a clearer mind and heart, you'll see I was being consistent with my thoughts. You're "fighting angry" now, my friend, and it is clouding your judgement.

    Many things can lose The Martial Spirit (I agree, it is bloody human decency, not so common in life though). Some things already are slowly losing it. Which is sad. :(

    This however is the part that worries me... This glorification of FIGHTING AND VIOLENCE ABOVE ALL ELSE, LEAST OF ALL COMMON HUMAN DECENCY.

    Quote:
    "My other point is that MMA as a whole has adopted Boxing's hyped up Marketing style, focusing on the "feuds" and "grudge match" attitude. The problem is that it affects not just the players but also the kids and teens watching. To sell tickets, they had to adopt the "pro wrestling" type of Marketing and Advertising. Well then, respect and etiquette takes a back seat."

    You said.. "So? They aren't selling respect and etiquette. They are selling fighting and violence! Since when was respect and etiquette part of the equation? Once again - what do these marketing promotions have to do with the Martial Arts that the athletes that compete in them?"

    I agree, they're selling fighting and violence. That there is the problem. :(
    We Martial Artists are guardians of violent techniques (with weapons even), to glorify it is self-destructive imho... This is why Silat wishes to focus on respect and etiquette.

    Since when was respect and etiquette part of the equation?
    Since the beginning really, as it is as you say "bloody human decency".

    Once again - what do these marketing promotions have to do with the Martial Arts that the athletes that compete in them?
    Everything my friend, everything, if you would only see it with your heart.

    However, in the spirit of that Martial Spirit, respecting your opponent and looking at the bigger picture...

    I bow out respectfully out of this argument with you Yohan.

    It seems that it means a lot to you that you win this one.

    I forfeit, you win my friend.

    I bow to you with hands clasped in respect.

    May happiness and peace be with you and yours. :)

    If I have hurt your feelings, please forgive me.
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  17. Bambi

    Bambi Valued Member

    That's news to me so forgive me if I don't take your word for it and ask for references to back that assertion up. What styles that constitute the components of modern MMA were developed, tested and used in battlefield conditions?

    Greco roman and freestyle wrestling? Both modern inventions that were never designed for warfare, if you want to look at their ancient precursors they were strictly sports too from what I know. I'll wager that the romans did'nt spent valuable time training their legions to wrestle and greek hoplites didn't put much effort into it either because the chances of two people being unarmed on a battle field are roughly zero.

    Boxing? Developed as a sport by the Victorians. It's pugilistic forbears? Not that I'm aware of

    BJJ? Nope

    Judo? Nope, Its older precursors were designed for warfare and they look pretty damn different to judo

    Muay Thai? Nope, modern sport too.

    The list of arts used in MMA looks pretty damn slim after that


    I'm pretty sure the dog brothers would maintain that modern mma is dog brothers fighting without weapons and a different attitude :woo:
     
  18. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    Well, many of the Western weapon MAs were originally taught somewhat differently from today's methods. I think (can't remember exactly and don't have the texts with me) that it was Al Fiore who said that the first step was to learn to wrestle, then to learn to wrestle with weapons in your hands (badly paraphrased) so unarmed fighting was taught first, and more tools were added as skills developed.

    Nowadays we have sport fencing, which basically takes one aspect of this as a standalone, and the other WMAs which tend to integrate the whole lot together, but starting from a different point.
     
  19. Ben Gash CLF

    Ben Gash CLF Valued Member

    Wow, so much wrong in one post.
    Yes Greek soldiers trained in wrestling and boxing, and there was even a sport vs combat debate then! Becoming unarmed was a constant issue on ancient battlefield as the weapons simply weren't up to being used for the duration of a battle. Bronze and iron swords blunt, bend and break pretty quickly, and spears snap fairly readily. Even once steel weapons came into general use it was still an issue.
    Pugilism and wrestling remained core elements of military training until the widespread use of firearms. However, the internal logic of this argument is flawed anyway, as most Silat systems have extensive hand to hand syllabi, so what is the point of them if it's a battlefield art?
    To argue that Jujitsu looks different from Judo and BJJ is complicated, as Jujitsu as a term is about as meaningful as Kung Fu. There's a lot of variation between Ryu anyway, and Judo is really just 2 of the Waza of it's source arts, isolated and developed, just as BJJ is Judo Ne Waza isolated and developed. While the aesthetic of Judo may be different to Koryu unarmed arts, the bulk of the techniques can be found within them, which is the issue at hand.
    What we call Muay Thai is a sporting development of Muay Boran, the traditional Thai Military unarmed art.

    Now, yes they are sports today, but then so is Silat (or not, see my next post). Show me meaningful evidence of Silat as a force on the battlefield in the last 80 years.
    This is what the Dog Brothers actually say
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2011
  20. LilBunnyRabbit

    LilBunnyRabbit Old One

    It still is now - in a WMA class it's not rare to see someone stamping on their sword to straighten it, and blades do occasionally break.

    Again, even then, for the same reason that wheel locks, matchlocks and flintlocks tended to have a nice hefty club-like grip. If you're designing your firearms for melee work, it's guaranteed that there'll be times when you'll need to drop back to pugilism in melee.

    Whether an art was a force on the battlefield or not doesn't stop it being a sport now in any case. WMA is definitely a sport, as is archery, and they were certainly forces on the battlefield.
     

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