Silat finish techniques...

Discussion in 'Silat' started by scottsummers, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member

    are there any harimau videos or any style of silat vids out there that actually go through finishing techniques-

    i.e. : armbars, submission, pressure point, neck crank stuff.....or harimau type stuff?
     
  2. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    Scott,

    Most Silat especially Harimau does not grapple as JuJitsu does. Harimau is actually a complete ground fighting system that even uses weapons.

    Harimau and other Silat ground fighting does not for the most part do joint locks or controls but instead do breaks, dislocations or kills.

    I know this is not exactly what you were looking for but I hope it helps.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  3. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member


    well yea, I was aware of that but are there videos that go through some ground basics or finishes? Of the one or two herman suwanda videos I have seen he almost always finishes with a lock or pressure point technique.
     
  4. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Scott,

    Many silat locks that you see demonstrated are actually breaks and dislocations too when implemented with speed and power. Yes, many can of course be used as a submission hold too.

    So, if we move away from a competition submission to win mentality, many submission techniques regardless of style can be deployed in the same manner.

    The silat mentality after takedown is not about applying a technique until the other guy taps out.

    It is this. Take 'em down, break a limb, stamp on the back of their ankle etc...then you have a chance against the other guy coming at you with a knife. It is about incapacitating one opponent as fast as you can and being ready for the next one.

    I believe the De Bourdes Harimau school have a 4 second rule. You must be able to deal with an opponent within 4 seconds to have a chance in a mutiple attack. (Any deBourdes pesilat please correct me if I'm wrong :) )

    We love a worst case scenario ;)
     
  5. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Scott,

    As for DVDs, there are some that have some techniques that you are looking for, but the only one I know of that is specifically groundfighting orientated is by Steve Benitez(I haven't seen this one). Check out his website.

    Otherwise do some googling or youtubing on , Harimau and Minang(Minangkabau) styles, and check out people like Guru Richard De Bourdes & Guru Eric Kruk. You should find something amongst that lot :)
     
  6. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member

    yea i have the benitez ground dvd. I like it although it doesnt cover very much material, it is well done and the stuff it does show is good. I just emailed some new debordes website.....seems he keeps switching or his old one was shut down. Also, since I started pekiti tersia i have been looking into their dumog which is really similar, also called dumpag sometimes....
     
  7. silatliam

    silatliam Valued Member

    re

    In Pukulan Cimande Pusaka we cover harimau as part of our core training. We have a seminar dvd that was film at my school a few years back, and covers alot of material and techniques from postures on the ground, to takedown down from the ground counters to kicks and punches, locks and various kicks you can do. Also there some drills to develop your skill on the ground. If you want more detail or how to get it, just send me a PM and I get back to you. Hope this helps.

    By the way one of my senior students who is a guru, is moving to Seattle next month, and will be setting up a training group there, if you interested in doing some training, you be more than welcome to meet up
    Liam
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2008
  8. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Scott,

    Sorry didn't realise you allready studied silat until I looked at your profile after posting...hope I didn't patronise or offend :eek:

    Robert Torres has a Kasalag Silat video on Buno too, which is good but more grappling & takedown orientated.

    Ron Balicki demonstrates some of the techniques I think you are looking for on one of his DVDs, I think it's silat takedowns and entries.
     
  9. tellner

    tellner Valued Member

    Hmm, one of the problems here is terminology. In most of the Silat with which I'm familiar a lock or submission isn't a "finishing technique". It's what you use when one isn't appropriate. Finishing techniques tend to disable or kill and often involve fractured skulls, dislocated necks, penetrating stab wounds and ballistic limb breaks. I'm not sure I'd want videos floating around with those for anyone who has $19.95
     
  10. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Well, good point there!

    But...joint dislocations and breaks are certainly part and parcel of most silat and some knife techniques are just plain evil. Mind you some things are indeed better left to a teachers discretion........rather than DVDs!

    However, I not quite sure that Scott was asking for techniques to finish someone permanently :eek: .
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2008
  11. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member

    yea i was talking about plain ol' finishing techniques....like catch wrestling's version of hooking, you might have a joint lock that involves mis-alignment of the person's body posture while you execute the technique and at the least results in a tap. BJJ can and probably will have the same street mentality....don't forget that....so if silat does not even have the ability to do some subs or compliances then that would be a weakness on the teacher's part. It's like a karate guy saying "don't take me down or I would have to do a uraken to your temple resulting in your death". And we all know that they cannot even do that having not the realistic training to do it. I know there's silat styles that go through basic - yet different armbars and yes, when I was in silat we did ground work. In practice the other guy taps if the lock is applied with correct leverage.
     
  12. ICT

    ICT Shaolin Malay Silat

    Scott,

    Most Silat Ground Fighting doesn't have locks because they are Ground Fighting Style not Grappling Styles! Also they are not a sport or for control they are a Tribal Fighting Art for Life & Death usually against multiple opponents that need to be Crippled, Maimed or Killed!

    BJJ is a Grappling Art NOT a Ground Fighting Art and NO they won't do breaks & dislocations to Cripple, Maim or Kill on the street because that is not what they train for! It's easy to say I know how to do an armbar so in a Life & Death encounter I would just break the arm instead of locking it but it just doesn't work that way. Is it Possible Yes, Probable No! Why, because

    You Fight The Way You Train So Train The Way You Fight!

    So if your looking for finishing moves that control the person once they are on the ground instead of disengaging then I would say incorporate BJJ's Joint Locks, Chokes and Holds into the Silat you already know.

    That way you have exactly what you want and who knows it may become popular as well as become your trademark.

    Sincerely,
    Teacher: Eddie Ivester
     
  13. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member


    Well the way you describe it...."fight the way you train" then you are even less equipped then most bjj people because you can't train break someone's limb or crack their neck in practice, and yes I have seen ground work in silat styles, they usually just don't stay at a lock for 30 seconds or more. If you don't know how to control someone there is even less chance you will be able to break their limbs. A bjj blackbelt not only has a dictionary of sub transitions to flow into but he has better positioning for striking. I only say that to point out that a lot of silat people think "oh yea....we just kill them/snap their limbs". It's not like that though in real life. There's a lot more to it.
     
  14. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Scott,

    Not quite sure where this thread is going.....& I might incur the BJJ wrath here....but we essentialy have a difference of approach.

    Ok, whilst 'submission' is possibly a favourable option against one opponent or in competitive sport, it is not a viable option with multiple attackers. I do not doubt that the BJJ blackbelt has a greater advantage than most styles against a single opponent if the fight goes to the ground, but that's not the point.

    Take the photo below.....yes the opponent is finished with that armbar eh? But that's until his friend turns up and gives the guy applying it an allmighty kick in the back of the head. That's what real life is like...take it from a guy that's been headstamped into a coma :D

    As for 'just kill 'em', I don't think anyone is really naive enough to think that...but as you come to mention it 'just kill 'em' is an option with a knife. However, I don't fancy the old life inprisonment part :eek:
     

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  15. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    but in that photo, the guys both know there is only 1 opponent.

    Not 1 single time during my silat training did I break an arm, or leg. I did accidentlly bugger a guys knee, but that was accidental... so If I fought the way I trained, Id never have broken a limb.
     
  16. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    Hehehe and perhaps they might always assume that even when there is not!

    C'mon the guy's head would practically be screaming 'kick me as hard as you can' if he tried to pull off that armbar on a Friday night on the pavement :)

    As for train as you fight, of course that is limited. maiming and killing is probably a bad idea in training....or in real life except in the most extreme situations.

    So, if you can accidentaly bugger a knee duning training you should be able to really bugger a knee if you meant it?
     
  17. Sgt_Major

    Sgt_Major Ex Global Mod Supporter

    Yeah, I can deliberately bugger a knee, but should the guy in the pic end up on his back on the pavement, I bet he can get up quick enough ;)

    The concept of you fight how you train, so train how you fight isnt subjective, it's either on or off. You cant train it all except the break or maim, but claim 'in the moment' I would.

    I know people who trained but never full contact sparring, and couldnt actually hit the person in a real situation because they never had, and didnt know how. They could block lightningly fast, but could not strike. Thats a perfect example of fighting how you train.

    Silat in general has a lot of useful techniques, and with the right person and the right mindset and training is a devastating art. Its just disheartening to see so many people half training and thinking they are devastating :rolleyes:
     
  18. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    I don't doubt that he can get up fast, but how he going to see them comming? If they are behind his head they are out of vision. He is also pre occupied by the first opponent.

    Indeed!

    Moi? :eek: Don't think I've ever made any uber deadly devastating claims :eek: I think the 'deadly syndrome' exists in all arts regardless.
     
  19. scottsummers

    scottsummers Valued Member

    really i'm not trying to argue about approach or silat mentality or what you can or can't pull of on the street, Im just casually asking if anyone has come across some silat vids with some locks/subs at the end. so far the ones I have seen that do contain them are-

    most of herman suwanda's stuff

    steven benitez

    rick hernandez-filipino kuntao(he trained under uncle bill)
     
  20. Gajah Silat

    Gajah Silat Ayo berantam!

    LOL don't worry, threads often spiral out of control.

    Just had another thought! Rick Tucci has a DVD with a lot of ground locking, can't remember the name though! Think he's an Inosanto guy!

    Here, found it, vol 2.

    http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/silat1.shtml
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2008

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