I'm with you Sarge! That is why I'm a frequent visitor at Hooter restaurant But the naked wing is execellent! :love:
Both don't have to me mutually exclusive... in the case of the garbage collector, i would honour him by making my students aware of where the silat transmited to them came from... As far as the restaurant, they are all important.. specially if they want to get Michellin stars... Just ask Gordon Ramsay!!!
I think we are all have the luxury of having different opinion on this matter It comes down to, what is one goal to learn silat. A goal establishes both a subjective and objective criterion for success. Subjective because, after all you difine the goal. Objective because no matter how you define the goal, once it is defined it exists independently of its creator. Its accomplishment can be measured in a context that is detached from its creator's mind. If your objective is to preserve the silat that you have learn from the originator. You should be proud of that. If anyone claimed learning the same styles of your, only then, the origin, the lineage and the authenticity becomes an issue. But if the person claimed that they learning silat that different than you in any which ways. I don't think its your business to disagree with that person, right? To a person who do not care for the silat culture, their goals is to learn how to fight AND if he found a teacher who willing to teach this person. Who we are critizing them? We should listen to learn and learn to listen. That's okay to be different. Don't judge, if you don't want to be judge. Lets Him be the judge.
I think we're mixing apples and pears. Having a difference of opinion is ok. This is why we're on this forum, otherwise we would stick to our respective schools, and stay locked in our own little boxes. Also, nobody here has judged, only put their opinions accross. Whatever our goals are, it is right to never forget where we learnt our skills from, and honour the legacy and lineage that sacrificed much, for us to have it. And on this I know that I am not wrong. I am sure that you honour your guru to your highest capability. It is good adab and the right thing to do.
For me without a doubt, I will honor my guru till the day I die. Regardless who and what other said about my system and lineage. But at the same times, I can't force anyone to do the same. Other Silat system, I can respect them without agreeing with their styles of silat or their lsilat lineage. I can respect them regardless what or how cloudy their silat background is. In this civiliazed world, people can easily manipulate their background to fit their agenda. Tristan
Sarge mate!! I thought you were a married man ? Anyway, it's very good to hear (see) the discussion develop on this thread! :love: Good cogent points of views from all. To continue ... What really is an authentic style? A style is (or should be) a system of movement/fighting that embodies unifying principles ... in other words, it is a methodology governed by principle. Often the methodology is in place because it is the vehicle along which the insight into principle was originally discovered and can hopefully be re-discovered by each generation of fighter of that system. This is an important distinction, because the aim of every pesilat should be to embody the principles of their fighting system ... regardless if their goal is for artistic expression or for effective movement as a fighter. A martial art/silat is a methodology that holds to certain principles of movement. For example, some of these principles of movement relate to the mechanics of closing distance between adversaries, how to deliver a snap kick, how to evade, how to stay healthy, how to express energy and power etc. To cut a long story short ... unless we are able to achieve individual insight into the principles governing our silat styles of choice, unless we have experienced the principle directly, we haven't yet become an authentic benificiary of the system we adhere to! The question is ... does the person who teaches embody the principles of their system, i.e. do they express the principles of movement through body-knowledge? If they do, their silat is authentic. Salam, Krisno
Salam Mas Kris, In my opinion an authentic aliran or perguruan should not only hope that through a certain exercise a certain principle(s) can be understood and made the murid's own, - it should know from experience. Not only the physical side but also the esoteric side. In this way the silat teacher is a guide: someone who has been there and knows it well. A good guru should be able to give each murid just what (s)he needs at the moment. People come in bodies not really condusive for silat these days, for example most people in the West can't jongkok and never in daily life use the floor except to walk on so things like this must be overcome by the teacher. Warm salaams to all, Bram
I am indeed a married man, but looking at something, and doing something with it are totally different. I've had some exceelent MA teachers, and some sucky ones. I can normally tell within a couple of sessions which they are - thats why Ive been in MA classes from a week to 5 years.
Hi there Dik Bram, that an aliran can be 100 % sure i.e. it should know from experience, is un-realistic. Every body and every mind experiences insight differently. The problem with large scale learning of body-knowledge, is that there is the possibility that the principle message can become opaque through time as each inheritor applies their own spin ... the paradox is that change is also what keeps a system (by name if not by style) alive. This is why the silat of each generation must be based on experiential understanding of the principles of movement. The idea of style then becomes more of a preferential thing, i.e. attacking low or high, evasion or emphasis on aggression or calmness etc. The principles of movement on the other hand are universal ... and I'm not talking about the esoteric here. That is another aspect of silat that I'm not going into ... but you are correct. Of course, if a school or system has a high success rate, it's methodology for passing on the principle is successful, but that could be because the teacher is a good communicator. An authentic pesilat on the other hand could be a lousy communicator and hence a lousy teacher . Authenticity of silat is thus a question for each individual. It can only be a personal experience ... because I can't transmit experience, I can try to show you what I mean, but in the end you have to experience the principles for yourself! Salam, Krisno
Mas kiai, I've been jongkok-ing since a child and have always been a 'floor sitter', my grandmother(in her eighties) is the same and often sits on the floor still!!! Must be genetic Indeed Mas Krisno, also we are all different sizes, shapes and have varying degrees of flexibility (or inflexibility if you're me ). Doesn't each body interpret each movement slightly differently because of it's own physical parameters? With regard to authenticity, is it not perfectly acceptable to learn an an 'authentic' system and recognise that fact but have room for adaptation for effectiveness in varying situations? Authenticity is no guarantee of effectiveness. For example, just because a technique is authentic does not mean it is effective against that drunken haymaker in the pub on a Friday night Does not the concept of pecahan give us the freedom to act and adapt within an authentic system?
Salam Bram, I concured! In my five decades of Silat training. I have tried to faithfully preserve the essence of what I have learned from my guru. Yet the way I express that essence in my techniques has changed as my understanding of my guru's message had deepened. Because the scope of that message is so vast and the forms in which it was expressed so great, no one can confidently state that a particular style is the REAL silat or that there is a single Silat standard. There can never be rigid uniformity in Silat, but we must guard against totally ignoring the founder's message to set up pseudo-Silat based on personal quirks. If we keep the spirit of the founder in our hearts and train sincerely, surely the Way of Harmony will open for us. Peace to all, Tristan
Mas Tristan, that is a very honourable perspective! To be totally true to that sentiment though, one must logically telescope back into the mists of time until such time we come to a real split/fork in the lineage of a system indicating a unique quirk, which then takes the style in a new direction! In other words, somewhere along the line there has to be a founder, some one who says ... I'm going to do this my way! Gajah Silat, you are right my friend! Except how I view authenticity means always effective movement, always effective body knowledge, always 100% aware of where your body mass is in a spatial context, always projecting awareness into the space around our body in space time. That is authentic. It is irrelevant what one calls it. I call it silat. Your father was a boxer I recall and as a pesilat who practiced boxing I am sure that he carried his awareness with him inside and outside the ring ... and I believe that you carry some of his message still in your being ... I'm guessing that possibility because of your post about your memory of boxing training with your father. Salam, Krisno
I wanted to post something on this, but between Saiful and Kembang, I couldn't possibly say it better. Not even halfway. Excellent and informative thread, conducted by adults. Somebody, tell me it's snowing in Jakarta.
Matur nuwun Bobster. Hi Bobster, There would have to be something seriously wrong with the weather for snow to fall on Jakarta . However it is supposed to be the start of summer here in Australia (Eastern), and normally the days are getting quite hot and dry. Guess what, it snowed quite heavily the day before yesterday ... second occurrence of snow 6 weeks before Christmas in 100 years apparently . All kinds of bad juju appears to be happening with the weather these days ... is it global warming I wonder? Salam and cheers, Krisno
I agree with points given by Mr. Arzaq. You must differentiate the word 'silat' and the martial art 'Silat'. As I recall, silat can be used as a malayan word for martial art. the "Seni Beladiri" came later. but if you are talking an Authentic Silat (Silat yang Asli Silat), then there were lineage came to play. (e.g. Is it Jujitsu if a school who teach Jujitsu trace its lineage to Bartitsu?) @Tristan: regarding lineage of Silat Harimau. Well, if you talk about lineage everything came to Malayu or Sriwijaya Minangkabau kingdoms is old but it came as a result of destruction of Malayu because of Singasari's Pamalayu expedition. But talking about lineage, from what my teacher told me, he studied Silat Harimau at Medan. And legend-wise, the style can trace its roots to Sumatra resistance against the Dutch. Since I don't study it more (the lineage), I still trace it to Medan and not Minangkabau, although I'm open to new info.
Sorry Rizal, I'm not the historian in this issue. My opinion is based on my experience, not necessarily the true fact. All I knows is that Silat Harimau originated from Minangkabau/W. Sumatra. I have met many Silat Harimau pesilats and trace their origing from Bukittinggi. Tristan
