Discussion in 'Internal Martial Arts' started by kungfucat, Jul 4, 2003.
PJ doesn't do parks
Re: Lu Dong Bin
You are right how can you be sure.Why speculate about past teachers when your knowledge is purely derived from what your teacher tells you(unless you are doing active reseach in chinese language history and culture)Spread your opinions as much as you want but do not present them as fact
Thats a little worrying to me, it is just scary if people rely on movies as accurate descriptions of IMA or phillosphy.CTHD comes from a popular serial fictional novel.While I am sure you feel you can relate to many elements and thoughts it is far from a treatise to be analysed.
I think your response have been deliberately inflammatory and argumentative.
In response to my point about Yang Lu Chuan , I did say I wasn't sure, but you accuse me of proposing it as fact.
Prior to that, about the origins of Bagua, I did indicate the uncertainty of the date of origin, yet you had to put your 2 cents worth in and accuse me of speculating on something I already said I was already uncertain of .
Since I already made the disclaimer that I wasn't sure of these points, I doubt I am misleading any newbies if that was your concern.
I have no problem arguing on logic , but on silly sematics like this, you are just making yourself look petty.
Your many post have been reasonable , wise and well tempered. This is not one of them.
Also, in the spirit of openess which you guys have urged me to, how about answering my question I posted earlier. You met Master Bing, you found him to be a nice chap. So I'm curious why you didn't stay on.
Pray tell us why....did you think his style was not suitable for you, did you think he was a charlatan , or perhaps did you think his skill level was below that of your?
Inquring minds like to know.
My Master says it is not good to do Qigong on the (wet) grass of a park. Too much Yin energy.
But Calistechnics and frisbee are fine .
Re: Re: Lu Dong Bin
I think I know a little bit more about Crouching Tiger than your Headliner info.
No where did I say CTHD was an accurate desciption of IMA.
You said that, I did not.
I allude to the fact that the movie had IMA / Wudang arts as opposed to Shaolin.
But the point is well made that merely following the movements ( as from a book or video) will only take a IMA student to a certain level. To go higher, one need to understan the reasons for the moves....and this is facilitate by know the language, Daoist philosophy and socio economic culture......I thought those were some of the the words you once used yourself.
Please stop putting words into my mouth.
It is so not you , wise Kat.
Thank you . You never know, stranger things have happened.
I know for a fact there's an Empty Force teacher in Moscow, originally from PRC.
See what I have to put up with ?
Some of these "Empty Force " skeptics can find no other way to deal with me than to nit pick on things most adults can figure out for themselves.
Hence my Hostile / Defensive posture....until I meet a nice guy like you.
You seem to think ALL my ideas of Empty Force comes from my one and only teacher. Here's something to change that misperception. An article about Yang Lu Chuan ie. Yang Tai Chi founder and his Empty Force.
Again, I'm only relaying info, not saying this is accurate.
Many past martial artists unknowingly developed empty force and became famous for their superior fighting prowess. For instance, Yang Pan-hou, who died in 1881, was the son of tai chi chuan's founder, Yang Lu-chan. He once used empty force to counterattack an opponent who tried to attack him from the rear. Yang simply arched his back and set his opponent flying backward without even touching him. "
Reduced to icons and single letter communication.
Sounds like a Qi disorder.
It's got to the point where it's better I hold my tongue now.
PJ - I think Kat was inferring that to write that kind of thing without doing your research does plenty to confuse newcomers.
It's like saying "apparently Yang Lu Chan invented the electric lightbulb and was campaign manager for the elections of a prominant politician when he was 37.... but I can't be sure"
That kind of thing spreads rumours without a trace of evidence.
He speaks !
But if you hold your tongue that way, how are you going to complete the path and join the Du and Ren meridians.....
No good for health !
pandajelly: Could I please ask you a few questions for the sake of personal reference? A few things have stumped me during the course of this debate (for lack of a better word), and I feel by answering these questions, you will be able to fill in a few missing pieces for both myself, and others, as I am sure I am not the only one that is somewhat perplexed.
My questions are as follows:
1. What was your martial arts background prior to meeting Bing Zhao? i.e What else have you formally studied?
2. Do you speak Mandarin? i.e Are you Chinese? Did you study it? Do you know just enough to converse with your Shifu?
3. How did you meet Bing Zhao? i.e Was it though a student of his? Advertisment? Pure Luck? etc
4. How long have you been training under Bing Zhao?
5. What is your deifinition of empty force?
6. Are you yourself capable of applying empty force, as per the above definition?
Sorry about all the questions, I actually did not mean to ask so many, but I am so overly curious. Hope you don't find any of these intrusive. I realise that it might take you sometime to answer them all, as some may require you to go into some detail, but if you could, it would be most appreciated. No rush though, whenever you get a chance to break away from all your training, which must keep you busy. God knows, I'm pretty buggered myself having done circle walking for 5hrs today, and ever previous day this week. Think I might go get a massage.
All the best,
Point taken, and much appreciate the well tempered reponse but I was alluding to the fact that the uncertainty lies within known records, not my knowledge of the known records.
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Originally posted by pandajelly
It reminds of the Bagua dude Dong Hai Chuan who learnt from 2 Daoist priests and made BaGuaZhang public in 1850's....even thought Bagua has probably been around since the Dao De Ching ( 500BC ?)
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There are numerous Chinese books that allude to the view that Bagua is as old as Taoism, and hence the Dao De Ching. Bagua was only made pubic by Dong Hai Chuan in 1851.
Seriously, I don't see how this statement however imprecise, can cause any misunderstanding amongst newbies.
And wrt Yang Lu Chuan and Empty Force, there are several references ( I have provided one url) on the web and in western published books. Again I relay the info, I'm not endorsing it.
Try not to shoot the messenger eh?
Does seem like half of the time we are fighting over this sort of thing : he said, she said, he didn't say, but you said......
Are you sure this prejudice is motivated by the fact you guys are bent on disagreeing with me on everything and anything just because we don't see eye to eye on Empty Force ?
Q and A
My questions are as follows:
1. What was your martial arts background prior to meeting Bing ?
Shaolin, Silat , Kick Boxing and Japanese EMAs. Broke boards, some body building ( now prohibited by teacher)
2. Do u speak Mandarin? Do u know just enough to converse
with your Shifu?
No Mandarin . Trying to learn. But Shifu speaks English surprisingly well.
3. How did you meet Bing Zhao? i.e Was it though a student of
his? Advertisment? Pure Luck? Etc
Thru Serendipity that was facilitated by any inquiring , open and non-judgemental mind, and following leads ( many false ones )
A student , sensing “ I was ready” opened the door.
4. How long have you been training under Bing Zhao?
1 year, fairly junior compared to some who’ve been in class 6 years.
5. What is your deifinition of empty force?
When you can generate and transfer “energy” with or without movement and transfer it to another lifeform ( does not work on furniture ) with or without contact.
The unfortunate recipient may be moved, paralysed, felled , thrown or psychologically terrorised….sometimes they scream.
This is my personal definition, subject to my limited learning attainment and what I have seen.
Ie. Don’t quote me…this is just to give you an idea.
I like to think of Empty Force as a TV remote control.
I can shut it down , change channels from afar or very near. I just need to point it the right way. But the Remote’s batteries must be sufficiently strong to transmit the signal.
6. Are you yourself capable of applying empty force, as per the
Off course not. It takes years . Just as IMA takes longer than EMAs to master to a level of competence, Empty Force training is a LONG process. And patience is a self imposed criteria.
But non EF friends , who also do Qigong say they can feel that my Qi has risen ( I hope)
It 's best studied alonside non-religious Daoism…it helps you understand why things work the way it does in EF.
7. Sorry about all the questions, I actually did not mean to ask so
many, but I am so overly curious. Hope you don't find any of
No not at all.
I like such truly positive and genuine questions intended to seek understanding, not to mock.
After all, these are the ones I myself asked a year ago.
They are so much better than the snide remarks, implied mocking and sneering I face 95% of the time.
I really don’t like to have to prove to anyone the authencity of what I say, I’m just sharing, it’s up to you to ACCEPT or REJECT or INVESTIGATE.
It’s too much effort and violates a cardinal Daoist principle, minimises unnecessary effort to minimise energy loss.
Hence it’s made me VERY DEFENSIVE, HOSTILE or VICIOUS when I sense I’m about to get another dose of “testing” from the many ARMCHAIR CRITICS.
No worres, mate I think you are have the same mindset as I did that finally lead me from Empty Force on the Cinema screen to Empty Force before my very eyes.
I wish you well on your quest, and to Immortality.
Perhaps we might meet.
I would like to add a little more on the subject of empty power, as a second point of view - from another student. I have know Master Zhao for 8 years. 'Empty power' and 'Dao' are the same thing. Empty power is not the result of martial arts, it is the result of Daoist cultivation and their application of martial arts. It does not relate to any religious beliefs or practices. Empty power is a term used for people without Dao to vagly understand what is happening, in fact there is no force and there is no power that does not already exist. So empty power is the result of a philosophy and practice that is truly in contrast with the secular world, instead of relying on the powers of the world that come from struggling, we now address the subject of 'powers' or things that exist in a world without struggle.
Daoism in the west is scholastic and not achieved. This can generate quite a bit of condemnation upon current westerners who 'practice' Dao in their daily life. The simple 'fact' is Daoism in China has only survived through lineages lead back to Lu Dong Bin. Each successor has learnt specifically and in detail from their teacher, never a successful daoist taught herself by reading a translated copy of the DaoDeChing .
Of course the centuries that roll by leave the remains of writing from many other successful Daoists, but reading and thinking you understand these writings are far from achieving Zheng Dao ( Genuine Dao ).
Coming back to Empty Power, I can tell people empty power is the result of a specific phisical and mental condition, cultivated through phisical and mental observations of Daoism. Efforless training and a simple, moral life lead you mind and body to open up and unite harmoniously, so that your potental is not limited by your own, wasted phiscal and mental struggles.
Importantly, what i have said is not any such guide for peoples practice, it is only my snapshot of comments on empty power from a students perspective that may re-adjust some confused views. And for others who just like to argue.... it is good meat to chew on .
As always, I bow to your wisdom.
Please feel free to correct or expand on anything I have stated.
And thank you...you know why.
Ok, I'll repeat what I've said countless times:
There are plenty of links on the web, to societies like those run by James Randi and the Sceptics Society. There has been an offer out for at least 20 years that anyone can demonstrate psychic/paranormal acts under controlled conditions will receive $1,000,000. This is a legally binding agreement, not a gimmick. The society is founded on the fact that they agree to honour the offer.
Look at what effect two bit psychic John Edward has done to earn millions with just a bit of cold reading and a smart marketing campaign - just wait till you show them the real thing. It won't take much, we're not talking about making the Statue of Liberty disappear... just get Sifu Bing or any of his students sit under controlled conditions and do the lightbulb trick. He doesn't even need to demonstrate 'projected chi' by not touching the bulb - as you said before, if it lights up when he's holding it, it demonstrates that the person "has chi". Sifu Bing can do that in a controlled environment, surely. A million dollars, just like that.
So why not go and do it, or get Sifu Bing to do it? If he's a good Daoist and doesn't believe in monetary gain, he could always donate it to a charity of his choice. Maybe some orphans or disaster victims... If he is stuck for some worthy causes I can name at least ten charities in my next post that could literally save thousands of lives with a million dollar donation.
Also, by proving the existence of a new energy, you can save many thousands of lives - I'm sure hospitals, mental institutions and disabled societies would be charging the door down to introduce it into their rehabilitation programs (you say "but it takes dedication and practice"... I'm sure the hundreds of children dying of leukaemia and the burns victims/cancer patients waiting in the hospitals will have plenty of both).
Thirdly, you will probably change the face of religious thought and practice throughout the world and lead to an awakening of worldwide consciousness now you can show the power of human thought (and only human thought) to influence the world. Hey, with a single swoop you will bring the blinkered view of scientific rationalism crashing to the ground and revive the ancient wonder in a universal essence.
Off you go ...
panda, check your private messages
Just checked inbox.
Your name sounds familiar.
Are you the tall fair handsome one ?
Studying TCM, N.P. now M.?
I'm the one who chatted with you after class at the bustop many moons ago.
If u figure it out good, else I'll email you the info.
BTW not sure how to send email from here...will try now.
Separate names with a comma.