Side Kicks ... Heel or Blade of Foot ?

Oh yes I know I am telegraphing to much . My instructor says its a perfect side kick .. just dont throw perfect side kicks when you really need them .. becouse they telegraph to much * chuckles * just throw a side kick . :bang:

 

I use both heel and knife edge. Heel is for the body targets where you need to focus your force into the smallest point for good penetration: ribs, solar plexus, kidneys, etc. Knife edge is for the legs where the surface is more round. I wouldn't use a knife edge to the body unless it was into the armpit, or under the pectoralis. I wouldn't use the heel to the knee because there is a good chance it would slip off of it's target.

 

I didnt realise this was a hapkido thread when I replied, cause I clicked on it from the 'new posts' but anyway, Ive tried kicking with the blade, it works for crescent kicks really well, I dont see much point to using it in the side kick. Like I said, I use the ball of the foot and it packs plenty of power. I dont see why I would break my foot doing it that way... but yeah it is sort of like a push kick (mt style).

 

I use my side as a push kick .. I found I get alot more power when I have a straight line from target to hip ... you cant do that if you use the ball of your foot . And the foot will bend towards the shin costing you power . With the heel nothing bends and you have a straight line from hip to target that just so happens to be the reinforced by your leg bones .. no loss of power ... even more push ...

 

Not quite... Thai guys use the ball of their foot for the push, if you got more power from a push with your heel, youd jump with your heel, not the ball of your foot. I use the ball with a side kick, just like a front kick.

 

No offense Anonymouse, but kicking with the ball of the foot on a side kick is not common in most martial arts. Possibly the hip position or body alignment that you use is different than a Hapkido sidekick. The problem that I have and maybe others is imagining sticking the ball of the foot out with the kick that I am used to. The way my hips are turned over and how I align my body with the kick it just makes more sense to me to kick with the heel. I'm assuming that your hips aren't turned over as much.

Do you know of any pictures on the net of someone doing a side kick with the ball of their foot? Maybe some mpeg footage? Just curious about how it looks. Personally if it works for you that's how you should do it.

 

Where do you intend to hit?
And a side kick with your heel, isn't a side kick anymore

 

Not in my opinion

 

it seems most people here use the heel to conenct with these kicks, you seem to be in the minority here...

 

I could probably get some 'footage' (hehe) of me kicking something like that. And yeah, like I said, I didnt even know this was a hapkido thread, its more of a TKD side kick. I dont know how you guys do it at all, I dont really see what the difference would be anyway, you could hit with the ball of your foot with most any kick except like a mule kick. Even then I guess you could, I wouldnt though. Ill see about filming me kicking the bag or someone else.

 

Unless we are talking of point sparring or competition,which Hapkido was not intended for,why are we even wasting time with all these body blow kicks and head and shoulder attack kicks?

The human body can take alot of hits,even kicks,unless you catch them while they are sucking air in you are wasting your time.
(ever seen people hit with a baseball bat not go down? I have and not to many can make there kicks as effectibve as full swings with a bat)

In Reality the attacker WILL BE moving in so the side kick to the body is a waste,the closest targets are the attackers legs,focus your side kicks (and other kicks) to the knee or the hip insertion or inside and outside that will stop your attackers forward progress.
(The legs can also take alot of hits,what we are attempting to do is stop the forward momentum of the attacker so we have a more compliant and stationary opponent)

In reality most encounters are within a few feet(arms length) so leg attacks above the waist are not doable.

Attacks that happen at distance are prearranged attacks,such as from a dispute in a bar ,an event that is precceded by a dialogue,these could lead to use of kicks and high kicks,but at the point you launch a kick the attacker will also be moving in.

I do not look at kicks from an aspect of sport or points ,I look at their use from practicality and Hapkido is supposed to be practical.

Train your art the way you hope to employ it.

 

Please don't make this into a high kicks are ineffective thread. I hardly think that I'd be waisting my time with a full power sidekick to someones ribs. I'm sure if you lined up 10 guys and hit each of them with base ball bats at least 9 of them would go down, or at least have a broken arm from trying to block it.

Kicks play a part in my Hapkido and I feel confident with them. Needless to say I'm not going to start a fight with a kick, but it might end one. Just because the initial contact of a fight might start out close doesn't mean the whole fight will be that way. Low kicks are great and I will use them when I need to.

Kicks can be practical with the right training and mindset.

 

in my Hapkido dojang, we do sidekicks with the heel. in reponse to the no body blow thing, if you kick slightly above the groin, in that abdominal region(below the stomach), nobody will be strong enough to take that hit. also if you kick that guy in the groin, he'll be down for the count. of course kicking in the knees is good, but they're not the only place that it's practical to kick.

 

Joint I am not making it a High Kicks versus low kick.

What I am saying is that most encounters happen in a range closer that high kicks can be done in.

I am also saying that in reality people are more able to take pain,especially when adrenaline is flowing than in a dojang,or standing waiting to be punched,kicked or hit with a bat or club.

Ever watch a police video where they strike a suspect with a baton,wood or metal,how many people drop on the first strike?

I am also used to doing High kicks and have jobs where I had to use my martial arts and I am sorry to say much of what we do does not work in reality.

I also have friends who have worked undercover ops and have employed Kicks that had no effect,especially if adrenaline,booze and drugs are involved.

I do not know how many real fights people on this board have had,nor how many actually made these kicks work,but I know from personal and second hand knowledge they are hard to make work.
(I wonder if any would post their experiences in making high kicks work for real)

When an attacker is close to start or is closing fast the kicks will not work as these encounters are not sparring or exchanges in a dojang they are closing or close ,tryin to knock your head off.

Looking at the threads here that people talk of being jammed and this is in an exchange encounter in the dojangs.

A front kick maybe doable but round houses,side kicks and anyother kick above the waste will no,most times ,work.

Again this is not a debate over high versus low,this is my opinion of what is actually doable from close range or closing range.

(Swing a heavy bag and kick it with a high kick (chest or head level)as it comes in and see how well it works)

Search the web or look at ebaumsworld where they show actual fights and tell me how many could get a kick off (any kick)with effect in any of these encounters.

Reality versus Dojang,they are different whether we admit it or not.

 

You make a very good point and you have some experience to back it up. I haven't been in a scrap where I threw a kick since I was 13 so I can't speak from personal experience on kicks. When I worked at the county jail I had several opportunities to take people down, use wristlocks and pressure points, but none of these fights came down to striking for me. I'm not disputing that most self-defense situations start out from up close, but distance can always be created and a kick is still a great way to end a fight. I have confidence in them, but if there comes a time to use them and they don't work as you say, I have many other tools in my box.

 

hmmm sounds like you are using more muscles in your side kick than I . If your using the ball of your foot in a jumping motion during your side kick .. sweet ... I just have no freaking clue how you do it brother . If you have any footage that would be sweet ... even some good stills would work if you dont have the bandwidth for video .
You seem to be using completely different kick mechanics than I am so my advise may or not mean diddly poo ( I heart the filter )

Yet again JimH ... I agree completely ... just wanted to get that out , not that anyone cares what a Monkey thinks ...

 

What is a side kick?
A stamp out sideways (yoko-geri)?
A bring your knee up and flick sideways?
A straight legged crescent kick?

And do you use toes up, toes down, or big toe up and the other four down?

 

What is a side kick? that is a great question.
We used to have to chamber ,kick,retract and either put down or relaunch.
Then Bruce Lee effect set in and the chamber was removed as it took time and telegraphed the intent.
No we have an adapted back kick as a side kick.
Yes,I would agree that a cresent kick is also a form of a side kick.

I got to thinking about a scenario for explanation of what was a side kick(snap or thrust):

If we were attacked by 3 opponents,one at 12 o'clock,one at 3 o'clock and one at 6 o'clock,we used to be able to do a front kick to 12,a side kick to 3 and a back kick to 6,all done with the right leg (for example)without moving the planted (left)foot,no pivot.

Today what has become the side kick, in the same scenario, would require the pivot of the planted left foot and the kick to the 3 o'clock to be a sort of back kick and then a repivot to make the back kick to the 6 o'clock

 

perpetuating myths

Please stop this BS. Bruce Lee took his kicking from Korean MAs and in particular hapkido. The very fact that CH relies on the Bruce Lee myth is telling, given the role that HKD had played in changing the hong kong movie industry in the 1970s.

Agh...you don't know what you are talking about. Side kicks have always been done this way in HKD. Not the blade of the foot.

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Yeah...I'm sure...just like a push kick is like a front kick.

Look...I and many HKDists can do that without the pivot and using our heel to kick. You simply have never tried to develop the hip strength, so that is why you do the blade. But we don't go on creating stories to justify why we cannot do things...

Please...if you want to go on about how "real" CH is, go ahead and continue to ramble on about it...but please do not make stuff up about how things were in HKD, since you quite obviously have not spent the time to learn anything beyond what propaganda and techniques CH likes to shove down your throat as legit/real.

Austin

 

Hi Austin,
could you please show me a point I made in which I said anything about Combat Hapkido in regards to this thread?
Or
Are you implying CH is the only hapkido suggesting REALISM?(as I have not mentioned CH)

I have many Years of what many term Traditional Hapkido and these are my early experiences in early Hapkido,we had a side kick,performed with the Blade,it then morphed into a heel kick/back kick,this is all I am saying.
I can do a Heel Kick and a back Kick and a blade edge kick,but do not tell me of the damage and the inability of the balde kick,that is for those who have not worked long enough to try to get IT to work.

I am not shoving CH down any ones throat,my remarks on what REALLY works on the street are from having realistic teachers in many varied arts including ,but not limited to ,TKD and Traditional Hapkido as well as CH but CH is not my first and only art,(sorry to disappoint).

I have been around these arts since 1970 I am no novice,all I am doing is showing people what else is out there still ,in some styles, and what was before it became something else.

I am also trying to show those who have never used any art or technique for real what the reality of use is.
(the scenario I gave of the three opponents was done while training in the 1980s under GM Ik Jo Kang Hapkido,do not tell me what was always done when you appear to have no clue)

When you do a technique and your partner rolls out and falls in front of you and you do your lock up,pin or kick have yopu ever done a technique for real/
To an uncooperative opponent who does not know to roll and goes straight down to their knees in front of you rather than roll over to prone?

If not then you are working in a closed world of theory over reality,again not CH but actual use.

The person on the street does not roll and does not tap ,they get injured and they go straight down,so if your follow ups do not include this realism of training when it happens you will either not know what to do or you will try to muscle the person to the ground to the position you are used to.

I do thank you for your response as it enlightened me to what I am not able to do ,in your eyes,lol.
( you do not know me or my background,and I appear to have struck a nerve with you,is it because what I write is true,or you disbelieve it?)

Outside of dojo training and sport if you try a side kick on a charging opponent or an opponent within punching range(and the kick is above the waist) you will end up on the ground on your butt,most of the time,the few times you do not are an exception.
(Please tell me about Real situations in which you made your side kick work in real life above the waist)

If you doubt this take a heavy bag swing it back at leats two feet(punching range and make your side kick,or ,so your ready, have a friend swing it so no claims of insufficient time to set are made,remember also that even this is just a test as you know how and when the back is moving to you,this advantage is not known against a thinking ,non positioned ,opponent.

Bruce Lee was doing Kicks from northern Style Kung Fu,due to his prior experiences prior to coming to the US and also thanks to James Lee and then from Jhoon Rhee( I am not sure I recognized any hapkido Kicksin any of his movies) or is GM rhees book on he and Bruce a lie also.

Bruce Lee is the one who in print said that chambering was providing a telegraphing of what was to come,look at his Kicks and the Kicks of the Era prior to his staements,they where Chambered kicks.(ask Joe Lewis who says that Lee was resposnsible for changing the way most styles looked at kicking and removed chambering for competitions)(sorry Joe is not Hapkido so his info may not pertain)

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"Agh...you don't know what you are talking about. Side kicks have always been done this way in HKD. Not the blade of the foot."

Is that so ,then I guess Bong Soo Hans Book on Hapkido (pgs 18,explanation of use of the knife edge on 112-113,jumping side kick 126-127) and his explanation of the heel kick (pgs 132-133) are all wrong?(blasphemy)
(sorry for using another Bong Soo Han reference)

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"Look...I and many HKDists can do that without the pivot and using our heel to kick."

You can do a side kick using your heal and Butt with out pivoting on your grounded leg?
I would like to see that,lol.

Please tell me more of what is in Real Traditional Hapkido.