Shou shu

Discussion in 'Kung Fu' started by Lee Waters, Jul 13, 2006.

  1. TheDarkJester

    TheDarkJester 90% Sarcasm, 10% Mostly Good Advice.

    alright... thats fair. I can accept that as a counterpoint.

    But say for example you have some random poster from Style A.. assuming his style is somewhat known and there are other people that practice that same style on here. Assume he makes some wild claims. Obviously the person practicing the same style is going to say "Hey dude.. thats incorrect. stop spouting incorrect information about our style." And usually.. USUALLY, it ends at that.

    Now take Style B... which has had several people come on here and make wild flamboyantly unrational claims about their style, and then have other people who practice it come on and verify the incorrect information that was said and add to it with even more wild claims, even when it flies in the face of rational common sense.

    See where we're coming from? If Shou Shu wants to be taken seriously, lets see some evidence pointing to anything but what we've come to see and expect from this style. Its one thing to just randomly bash a style, but the history, the teacher, curriculum and even the students point to it being a general fraud and a crock of warm turd soup.

    I mean.. It'd be one thing if there was a few instances of shou shu'ers coming on here and spouting off some nonsense and getting corrected. But all of them have come on here with that nonsense.. Who do you think is feeding it to them? Think they're coming up with it on their own? No.. they're being spoon fed crap, more than likely by Moore himself and then trying to pass it off on actually knowledgable people and getting checked.. HARD.
  2. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Oh, do you mean the David Ross and Jason Yee of IKF (International KICKBOXING Federation)? Which teaches Sanshou, Boxing, Muay Thai, among others.

    Cung Le also DID train in Kickboxing as well. How? BECAUSE SANSHOU IS KICKBOXING, it’s just from Chinese nationalistic origin. Nothing more. Sanshou/Sanda= Chinese Kickboxing. Even the matches display this as well, Western Boxing…with kicks. Have you seen his training vids? Hmmn, jab, cross, hook, upper…looks like boxing to me. Okay, we have some throws.

    Maybe you’re holding onto the idea of them having CMA backgrounds a bit too tightly. But what’s being displayed in that ring is kickboxing, nothing more. I didn’t say if they were good or not (okay, maybe Jason Yee, I've seen him fight and weeeeeell....), but what you’re giving me are names of kickboxers who happen to have CMA backgrounds. And if they do teach to fight in the ring, even from a “traditional” Kwoon *TADAH* they’re teaching what….?

    “If it walks like a duck…”
    With some Kuai Jiao thrown in for flavor, depending on the rule set.

    Cung Le vs. Rudi Ott promo
    Cung Le performance highlights
    Jeezus, mom...what is that?
    Hey, they show a glimpse of him working a bob n' weave in the gym too. what is that?!

    Now as far as myself, I work two careers equally. Both game development/artwork and martial arts. But like anything, I had to choose one to run with as a professional career. Game design was it, as fate would have it. So unfortunately I don’t and cannot participate in competitions of a large scale. Believe me, I’ve tried and my partner has threatened me numerous times if I did.

    But to make up for it, I train with those that do compete from time to time and spar a great deal (yes, using trademark techniques and concepts from my CMA background. Not just barebones kickboxing). Again, most of what I’m going through these days is grappling, so I get to roll with BJJers and Wrestlers a lot more now. So yes, I keep an atheletic regimen everyday, go through a great amount of muscle conditioning and constantly test what works and doesn't work with live practice in stand up and groundfighting from my Kung Fu training. You'd be surprised as to what traditional concepts and movements from many CMAs are way ahead of their time in live sparring.
    Again, not just boxing, with roundhouses.

    There will be a few videos put up of my sparring soon enough, if you need to know.

    BTW, my Sifu was David Sanchez from Wuu Xing Chuan located in the Bronx and Queens areas. Unfortunately it wasn't a "sanctioned" school, as most of our training took place in dusty, hot basements.

    Only way you're getting anymore personal with me is if you spar with me. And you can PM me if you want to setup a session with that. I'm always looking for more training partners in NYC.
  3. greenlantern

    greenlantern New Member

    Since Al sr has passed away I doubt it was him. In my experience at my school (there's quite a few schools) no one has ever made these outlandish claims. I can't speak for other schools. That's why it's not fair to generalize.
  4. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    more videos!

    Let us know when you do get a video! I LOVE seeing sparring vids. That would be _awesome_. My sparring sucks, so I want to see good examples of what I can attain.
  5. greenlantern

    greenlantern New Member

    1) Someone has to invent the style whether it was 1000 years ago or yesterday someone has to create it.
    2) Believable in who's eyes?
    3) And yes the mongoose is a killer of snakes.
    4) Who is WE that knows what an "authentic" CMA is? A bunch of 20-23 year old kids?
  6. Lee Waters

    Lee Waters Valued Member

    Please, Shou Shu is kenpo, read the interview carefully, notice on page 6, Mr Moore is speaking of "people not getting promotions after seven or eight years, and getting brow-beaten because they were smarter, and could do the job better, but they were smaller and when thay opened their mouth and started to bring his opinion out, the guy would look at him and threaten him, So he would shut up. He is talking about himself, Shou Shu is the tracy / parker system, The instructors quote from parkers books all the time and I don't think they even know it. Some of the techniques even have the same names.Steve Labounty confirmed he was their instructor.
  7. wcrane

    wcrane Valued Member

    well,if it came from steve labounty then we know its true.
  8. M-Col

    M-Col New Member

    Yes I do. That's an organization that promotes events, they don't teach anything. Jason never studied kickboxing. He opened the FIRST san shou school in the USA based on his CMA knowledge.Ross similiarly opened one of the first san shou schools based on his CMA background.

    Agian Cung never trained in san shou, he fought in san shou with his TMA background.

    If you disagree then please tell me who trained Jason,David, Cung or any of the others I mentioned in kickboxing?

    UMMM no. San shou means unrestrained hands and sanda means unrestrained striking. Both are ancient terms thatrefer to sparring or free practise, something TCMA have been doing for centuries.

    Right, becuase kung fu and other traditional arts don't have the same punches and kicks as kick boxing. Little history lesson junior, Kickboxing was just a nick name given to full contact karate that stuck. Eventually some people opened kickboxing gyms where you could fight but not have to do katas and other traditional excersises but they were still teaching karate techniques. San shou is part of kung fu that you can now learn seperatly if your not interested in the rest of the art but all of san shou techniques come from kung fu.

    OK, how about competitions on a small scale? What exactly does your partner threaten you with? :confused: and if he's a "partner" how much say does he have over your personal time? :confused:

    So for all your bravado you don't do anything more than some informal sparring from time to time. That's ok but what i find hysterical is that you start arguments claiming things like

    and then you go on to state how you use CMA techniques against guys who compete a lot. LOL, need a crowbar to help get your foot out of your mouth, or are you claiming that you found the one magical exception to your rule?
  9. Lee Waters

    Lee Waters Valued Member

    Yes, as a businesss man, I check out facts completly, I was asked to get involved with the organization, after having having a family member in the system, Red flags everywhere, I also talked with Al Tracy's son, as he had me on the phone, he called his father on another line, I could here Mr Tracy, he was not happy, but all his son would say is that,he would look into a different school. Check out the histories of Steve Labounty, or Bryan Hawkins, These men have accomplished much, police work to Don Johnson bodyguard and many others, Three accomplished men say the same.
    If you really want to know the depth of Al Moore run a history and business check, study young men, study!
  10. beknar

    beknar Valued Member

    what are some effective venues for testing?

    So, what are some effective venues for testing? It's the sparring thread again!

    I'll throw out a few:

    limited area striking with and without safety equipment
    unlimited area striking with and without saftey equipment
    vale tudo/MMA style (transition to grappling) with/without safety equipment
    judo style randori
    grappling style rolling
    aikido style random attacks
    professional sporting venues
    amateur sporting venues
    inter-school tournaments (open)
    intra-school tournaments (closed)

    Now, do these have to effectively translate to The Street? How much of it has to transfer to The Street in order to be considered effective? In the street, we are not fighting multiple rounds with people throwing in the towel, we have many many many more variables than in The Ring. One can consider Aikido to be a very effective street style if one looks at it with the goal of just escaping, but perhaps not with the goal of all out brawling.

    I hate to hijack the thread, but any opportunity to discuss sparring is a good one. :)
  11. Davey Bones

    Davey Bones New Member

    So in other words, all that crap you spew about how tough you are and how you don't care about showing up to work with black eyes is all a lot of hot air. Damn hypocrite. We say we put our jobs ahead of our MA and you blow a gasket. Now we all know the truth. You really are a hypocrite.

    Wait, what's your favourite phrase? Oh, right "YOU'RE JUST MAKING EXCUSES". Back at ya, Shen.

    So now you give us the unprovable. You really need to get off your moral high horse and just quit while you're behind, Shen. Really. You're no different than the rest of us for all your precious words and braggadaccio. You do the same damn thing.

    But at least we now know where it's coming from. You can't have what you want, so you project it onto the rest of us. Get over it.
  12. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    If someone does, then he should just state he is teaching his own stuff, not pass it off as an ancient and venerable fighting technique.

    Believable in the eyes of people that know even the slightest about how China treats its own history; ie: with much myth thrown in.

    And the sheep is a killer of grass. Yet you don't see Sheep kung-fu. This goes with much of what makes us consider Shou Shu as probable BS: the exageration of the "animal". Legitimate CMAs, even those explicitely "animal", don't push the animal metaphor further than it is genuinely useful. To try to move like a mongoose in order to defeat another doing a snake style is ridiculous; we're humans, not mongoose (mongeese?) and snakes.

    We is the great big majority of regular posters on this forum, which include many high ranking martial artists, and a lot of people that are likely over twice your age. Wanna see? A'ight! Everyone that doesn't think that Shou Shu is likely BS raise your e-hands! (I'd ask for the opposite, but I don't want to drown any potential discussion)
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  13. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    Hmmmn...I'm sure that you're educated, so let me repeat. :rolleyes:

    I chose ONE as a financial career. Martial Arts was not the choice in that respect, though it could've been. I never said that I put one before the other as far as importance is concerned.

    See unfortunately you don't know me personally. So if you're trying to categorize my own motives and practices along with yours (on a forum, of all places), then you mind as well keep trying. My MAs and my Design career go hand in hand and I've never seperated them in degrees of priority or consistency.

    Again, maybe if you actually KNEW me in person, you'd see exactly what I mean. But it's hard enough just trying to get to meet anybody on this forum, so I'd expect that much.

    So no, I'm not like you. I'm sorry...
    Try again.
  14. Shen Yin

    Shen Yin Sanda/Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    I'm sorry...but for every piece of footage that I've seen with Cung or Jason..I see Kickboxing. I mean, heh..maybe I'm buggin' out, but it sure as hell looks like Kickboxing to me.

    So they run an organization that they DO NOT teach in, is what you're saying? And when one of the students decides to compete, their Kung Fu suddenly becomes conventional Kickboxing.

    So which one is it? Do they, or DON'T they have Kickboxing as the competitive MA in this organization? According to their website, they do.

    And I've seen Jason Yee's..."work". He's a forms guy, not a fighter. So if that is his "CMA knowledge", then it's no wonder that the organization resorts to conventional kickboxing in order to compete effectively.

    Yada, yada..I KNOW what they mean in translation. And I KNOW what Kung Fu means also. But what is Sanshou/SanDa in all actuality when being performed in the ring?


    Let's not delve into semantics here, shall we.

    So what you just said was that SanShou is Kung Fu's version of Kickboxing, just like it was for Karate at one time. That's right, keep diggin the hole for yourself.
    Again, I do believe that I said all effective MAs share universal concepts. Didn't I? However, every MA also has very distinctive attributes and trademark concepts that seperate one from the other.

    Boxing doesn't look like Sambo, and Baji doesn't look like Muay Thai. But they all have punches, don't they?

    Let's not get stupid here.

    Eh-eh, WRONG. *this is why literacy is important, children*

    I said that I spar with some COMPETITORS FROM TIME TO TIME. I didn't say that I GENERALLY spar from time to time.

    I spar quite often, whether it's stand up or groundfighting. Especially as of late these days, with BJJ practitioners and wrestlers. But I'm guessing that since not every single one of them competes, then they're less effective than the overall art that's proven itself countless times.

    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  15. onyomi

    onyomi 差不多先生

    But Longfist, Taiji, Baji, Xingyi, Mantis, Bagua, etc. HAVE proven themselves, often in ways more meaningful than BJJ has. Taiji was created by a war veteran (and I'm talking about wars in which you actually used spears, swords and fists). Yang Luchan used Taiji to beat all other martial artists, bodyguards and tough guys who could challenge him in the capital city of Beijing at the time. Chen Fake came two generations later and did the same thing. Xingyi was created by a spear fighter with experience in WAR in which spears were important. Li Shuwen used Baji to KILL most of the people who challenged him to martial contests.

    All of the better-known CMAs we have today come to us precisely because they've already proved themselves over centuries of real, life-or-death combat, whic is a world away yet again from sparring in a ring with gloves on. Unlike today when any random goof can creat a style and claim it's super-deadly, traditional CMA styles went through a pretty long test period. If practitioners of a style lost challenges or failed as bodyguards then their style would be discarded. These styles were created by people with lots of real experience--people who staked their lives on the effectiveness of these styles.

    Therefore, the few dozen major CMA styles that come down to the present deserve every bit as much respect as "proven" style as BJJ or Muay Thai. Just because they haven't proven themselves on TV in your brief lifetime doesn't mean they've yet to come into their own. In fact, I'd say they came into their own hundred of years ago, and in most cases are now in a state of serious decline.

    This is also why we don't give respect to Shou Shu if it was created recently while we do give respect to ancient styles, even if their origin is cloudy. If Shou Shu was created in the last 50 years in California, then why would we respect it as having proven itself on ancient battlefields, in a time when fighting with fists, swords, spears, sticks and bows was the reality? We don't give it that respect because it's created in a safe environment, doesn't have the hundreds of years of verifiable history many CMAs have, and hasn't stood the test of time.
  16. greenlantern

    greenlantern New Member

    You're right we're not mongoose we are also not tigers, cranes, mantis or any other animal that has a style named after it. That's a stupid argument! :bang: I noticed you study "flying" white crane. So you're saying you can fly? Are you a crane? No you're not. You should think about your argument before you post it. The animals are mimicked because of their fighting ability not because we think we're that animal.

    I'm not sure how many people on here are twice my age, but if someone that doesn't have snot running out of their nose has any first hand information for or against shou shu please post it. I would be interested in hearing it.

    And Guizzy wipe you're nose and go to your room till you have something more intelligent to say. Other than bashing something you know nothing about.
  17. Chimpcheng

    Chimpcheng Yup... Giant cow head... Supporter


    This has once again turned into a YET ANOTHER 'CMA can't hold it's own' thread with people bickering on both sides of the equation. There will always be those of us who will vouch for CMA without question and there will always be those of us who will question it's practicality and usefulness and of course those who will take the middle ground.

    I for one have had to use kung fu in real life (damned bullies) and in competition (damned other CMAists) and for me it works.

    People will always have their own views, you can't change that, but we can agree to disagree and keep it civil.
  18. Guizzy

    Guizzy with Arnaud and Eustache

    Indeed, because we don't push the metaphor further than it's really useful. BASIC concepts are extracted from this metaphor, but further than that, it starts to be silly. Making an animal style to be a counter to another animal style, making animal styles purposedly giving them weaknesses (quoting from the Shou Shu page about the Mongoose : "He does not have the strength of the tiger but creates his power through completely different methods."); this is all silly.

    Let's look at it another way; the animal metaphor is a staple of Chinese martial arts. Not all of them do, but almost all those that do are chinese.

    Chinese martial arts that do refer almost always to the same 6 or 7 animals.

    Why would Shou Shu; a martial art that has no traceable lineage, and of which only deluded fools have made a positive account (not talking about you there, but the other that have talked about it here before), be using the metaphor for some weird animals that no other chinese martial art do? We should simply believe that? Sorry, but when you make outlandish claims, you have to prove they don't come out of your back end. Chinese Martial Arts have common roots, and anything that stray too far from these roots is questionned; and should be able to answer simple questions.
    Lee Waters has made a buisness check; why don't you ask him what he found?

    In fact, I'd like to hear it as well; should be very fun to hear.
    If you had to have more than a year of experience in a system in order to judge based on what an art offer, we'd all be wasting precious time in fraud schools. Sometimes, you have to make a judgement based on what an art puts forward; and Shou Shu has only put forward outlandish claims, people with bad attitude problems and absolutely no proof of any authenticity OR fighting ability.

    If you have anything worthwhile to say to redeem Shou Shu, by all means, enlighten us! But so far, I'll have to conclude (as well as warn everyone asking about it) that Shou Shu is likely BS.

    (Sarcasm on)Oooooh, what a surprise! No e-hands raised so far!(Sarcasm off)
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  19. M-Col

    M-Col New Member

    So what your saying is kung fu should never look like kickboxing and that's were your wrong.

    See this is why literacy is so important! You claimed they belonged to an orginization that teaches kickboxing. The orginization doesn't teach anything, they hold and promote fights. When they hold san shou(full contact KUNG FU) bouts Jason has fought with them and brought students to thier events. What you got out of that would be questionable for a third grader and I'm assuming your older than that.

    They sponser many styles of fighting including san shou.

    Last post you said you've seen him fight and this post you say he's not a fighter. So what your really saying is that you're going to keep changing what you say until I let you out of this with a little dignity :D

    As I've already told you Jason was a bronze medalist at the world san shou championships. He was the first American to win a medal at worlds. He was also a US national san shou champ a couple of times. He's listed in the kung fu hall of fame as the only one to ever win at forms, weapon forms and full contact fighting in the same event. He's had a thirty some odd fight career and only lost 3 times. His first loss was at worlds in the semi finals where he lost to the gold medalist from that year and then went on to win the bronze. His second loss was to Cung Le at the 97 pay per view event when he came out of a 3 year retirment to fight a guy who was at the top of his game and a wieght class above his. His third loss was in an IKF fight after another 1 1/2 - 2 year lay off from a sever leg injury. Not that he needs excuses to lose 3 times in thirty something fights. In any case he sounds like a fighter to me, what's your definition?

    In addition to his fight career he trained Al Lorioux and Marvin Perry, the two best san shou fighters in US history. He's trained more national champions than any other trainer in the US, he's had more students make the US international team than any other trainer, and he's had more student's medal at worlds than any other US trainer. And the point of all this is that he never trained in kick boxing. He only trained in CMA. His students don't convert to conventional kickboxers when they fight they use CMA the way he has coached them to use it.

    I don't care if you call it kickboxing. that's just a generic name for competitions. San shou, weather you call it Chinese kickboxing or full contact kung fu, is a CMA that uses CMA principles, techniques and strategies. It's not someboby elses kickboxing style with a few throws mixed in as you claimed.

    See this again is why literacy is so important! What I said was that kickboxing is a nick name given to the competitions. The issue isn't weather or not you can/should call san shou kickboxing. You claimed that people abandon their style and start using kickboxing as if it were a seperate art and it's not. All of the footwork, movement, punches, kicks and throws are from CMA.

    And I do believe that I said that the trademark of CMA is to flow smoothly through all ranges and to set up trows and takedowns with the strikes. Didn't I?

    You should think like this before you start posting.


    Did you read your last line?

    Oh, I completly understood what you said. And as I pionted out before, for all your bravado about how people should be testing there fists all you ever do is spar which is nothing like the intesity of a competition. Oh and all the lame and pathetic excuses for why you don't compete LOL! Be honest you either don't want to or your afraid to.
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2006
  20. Lee Waters

    Lee Waters Valued Member's+karate&which=company&page=1&x=12&y=9

    I can show you where, but I can't give out this information, if a person take's time to research, the story can be found, The business tracks shows, the name, and date of a business, where and when. Personal informationwill give you time and place where a person had lived. After I talked with the two gentlemen I mentioned, Al Tracy's son, and Steve Labounty,and read what Bryan Hawkins had to say in The Journey, By the way if this not true, the Moore's would have a hell of a case, I stoped looking, strike five and your out. Then I found the interview, and ran dates, end of story. I was not aware this debate has been going on so long, Don,t people research!

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