Do what? Prove something? I, personally, am satisfied with my training in CMA and feel no need to prove anything to anyone. While I don't care to lift a finger to improve the public opinion of CMA, I won't be hurting it either.
Wow Man! 11 whole years and your a know it all already! That's pretty good considering I've had almost 3 times your experience and I can't make such ridiculous claims. ROTFLMAO!!! I just finished reading through numerous posts of yours where you cliam to have these unquestionable credentials but every time your asked what they are you avoid the question like you did here. Where do you think all the competitors in the full contact continuous sparring, san shou, sanda, kou shu, and shuai chiao events come from? Most of them come from traditional Chinese martial arts schools. As for the san shou specific schools in the US lets take a look at who runs them and what their background is. Jason Yee ran the most successful program in the country and his background was in Wah Lum and Hung Gar.His fighters have been successful not only in san shou but in maut thai and american kickboxing as well. Marvin Perry and Josh Bartholomew have taken over teaching in Boston and they both have cma backgrounds, Marvin with Dr. Yang and Jason Yee and Josh with Yao Li and Jason Yee. David Ross is a Lama Pai guy and has trained many top fighters.His fighters have also had success outside of san shou. Cung Le is kind of a mut but much of his training comes from Chinese and Vietnamese kung fu. Rudi Ott has trained with Jason Yee, Yao Li, Liang Shou Yu, and Cung Le. Chan's kung fu has trained many good fighters like Dunkin Duffin out of their TCMA program. Dr. Yang, Liang shou Yu, Lee Sui Hung, Tat Mua Wong, Shawn Liu, Tai Yim and tons of other TCMA teachers send fighters to full contact tournements all the time and many do well. Sorry if I can't name every school in the country but I know from personal experience that there are plenty of them. Right, because boxers and kickboxers don't wear safty gear during sparring! OK. Don't read, go to the schools and check out there sparring programs. I've seen many schools with good programs and faced many more in competition. There are plenty of fight vids on the net. I'm sure you got a real good feel for what 12 programs are capable of in 11 years, that's less than a year per school.
Yes it can and has been said about every one of those arts, doesn't make it true but it has been said. Just a question, but how would you know if shou shu is an effective art or not? Have you studied it or fought anyone who has trained in it? Or are you just assuming this because a couple of people on here have made some outlandish claims. Every art has their delusional students, that doesn't make it a bad art.
The thing is, we've got many here that are very knowledgable on the subject of CMAs; and most of us have a good grasp on what authentic CMAs look like/are. ShouShu, no matter how we look at it, does not have the legit "glow" to it. And if the teacher is not honest enough to drop the kung fu name / affiliation... Perhaps the techniques could work, I don't know enough about them to say, but I wouldn't want to learn anything from a dishonest teacher.
I disagree on one point. Boxing Gloves = safety gear. But aside from that.. you're pretty much spot on. If this thread was a game of battleship.. I'd get ****ed and flip the board and storm off by now.
And for the record.. How does one create a form from the Mongoose like Shou Shu did? How exactly can one imitate the mongoose? Its probably the most rediculous thing about the style I've ever read.
Great, have fun on your quest. Obviously many of us don't see the "problems" you seem to believe are so prevalent. Again, you're seeing problems EVERYWHERE. We don't agree with that assessment, and you don't accept that. There's really not much we can do, especially when you insist on telling us all how much we SUCK. You make insulting and sweeping generalizations about all of us, and now you're whining about how we're not "helping you"? Do you realize how patronizing you sound?!? We don't share your obsessive-compulsive need to prove ourselves. Get over it. And no, I don't forgive you. Have fun. Although for the life of me I can't imagine why you'd want a bunch of sucky CMA wanna-be's helping you out. After all, most of us are too busy pretending to be "martial artists" in your estimation.
Hate to say it, but just about every poster here who has done Shou Shu has made outlandinsh claims, not just "a couple". And every one of them has been run off with their tails between their legs. Maybe you can be the guy who changes our minds, maybe you won't be. So far, though, you've got an uphill battle to deal with.
And with the exception of San Shou, most of your examples are people who perform conventional kickboxing. In fact, San Shou is nothing more than Chinese conventional Kickboxing, w/ some Shuai Chiao added for flavor. Cung Le was probably the only exception you've given, and like you said, he's even a hybrid. Who also admitted to having to evolve his skill for current MMA standards as it is today. Don Wilson is another one who has a CMAs background. But when he's in the ring, what does he use? Conventional kickboxing, which is not much different from anyone else's of another background who stepped into the ring. I mean, I have not a single damn ounce of a problem with kickboxing whatsoever. Some of my favorite fighters are kickboxers, like Benny Urquidez or Mike Zambidis. But if you're going to tell me that you're a CMAist, well can I at least see where the CMAs are? Don't tell me that you're a Wu Kung practitioner of some sort, then just perform basic Western Boxing, coupled with a few throws and a roundhouse. Here's an example of what I mean. Andy Hug is of Kyokushin background, but was one of the greatest Kickboxers who ever lived (and would be still considered so today, God bless his soul). However, just because he was in a ring w/ gloves doesn't mean that suddenly his roots were gone. He would still apply many trademark techniques and movements associated w/ Kyokushin. Such as his famous Kakato Otoshi and spinning low hook sweep among others. Techniques that have helped him win many K1 tournaments. But at the same time, these are classic Kyokushin Karate striking techniques. If there are any Kickboxers w/ CMA backgrounds, you sure as hell would never know it. Unless they either told you, or you had to look up their references. Anyone can do that really, but it doesn't make CMAs any more credible by doing so. There are of course certain universal basics to every effective Martial Art. But what makes each Fist shine through are its trademark recognizable attributes. Andy Hug proved that without a shadow of a doubt.
Monkey, dog, tiger, crane and every other animal in the animal kingdom has a style. So why would mongoose be so ridiculous. Very few arts have an undisputed origin. And all arts somewhere down the line have claimed to be the best. So to bash another art for the same is hypocritical. Whether the origins for shou shu are accurate or not I don't know, I wasn't there. But can anyone prove that they're not accurate with first hand knowledge not assumptions?
How about you do a search? The proof is sitting undisturbed under a pile of roasted trolls and punk asses regarding the Shou Shu topic which has been done to death.. including the famous claim of being "TOO DEADLY!!!" :Alien: Puhleeeze. Anytime I hear the too deadly bit I just want to throw a shadowless kick right to their balls. Twice. :yeleyes:
I must have missed that pile it was probably next to the pile with the "shadowless kick" under it. As I said some eager young students have made some wild claims but that doesn't change the effectiveness of the art. And your reference to these students' claims to shou shu being "TOO DEADLY" probably comes from their interpretation of why shou shu practitioners don't compete. It's for the same reason quite a few other arts don't compete, they weren't designed to fight fair or by rules.
How do you get everything so wrong!!! What examples did I give of people who perform conventional kickboxing? I gave you a list of people who went into sport fighting competition with nothing but a CMA background. Jason Yee never learned kickboxing he learned CMA and fought. David Ross Never learned kickboxing he trained fighters based on his CMA background. Cung le has trained in many arts but not kickboxing. Nobody I mentioned ever trained kickboxing. Do you just make up stupid replies and hope the original poster won't notice? Your comments on san shou are completely uneducated as well but I'm not going to try and explain that to someone who has 11 years experience in CMA but can't see all the CMA principles involved in san shou. What I will say is that CMA includes all ranges of fighting more equally than any other traditional art and they flow from one range to the next with ease as opposed to the occasional kickboxer who learns a few throws and tries san shou. The different pieces of his game never fit together properly. You can see how Jason Yee or Marvin Perry or Al Loriux would use there punches and kicks to set up the throws in fluid combination. That's the trademark of CMA. I notice you still didn't answer any of my questions like who trained you in your unquestionable background or what your fight record was and from what tournaments.
Indeed! Just because they don't stop and yell: "Now, I become... T3H DR4GON!" doesn't mean they're not actually using CMA principles and applying them.
Look man.. instead of bickering back and forth.. why don't you do a little digging and searching instead. Maybe you can understand why it is we're saying such things. And there are plenty of arts that originally weren't meant for competition that are just as nasty if not more vicious that compete. That argument point is overused and not worth the bandwidth its typed on.
Well, that didn't take long for Yohan to be right. We all knew it'd come out of your mouth sooner or later!
Shenyin, we all know you think modern CMAers don't test their arts enough with non-cooperative sparring, but what does that have to do with Shou-shu?
I have read most of the other threads. You're right it is the same tired argument on BOTH sides. Not every art chooses to adapt so they can compete shou sho is not the only one, to each their own. The question still remains have you or anyone else that is bashing shou shu trained or fought someone who has trained in shou shu. If not perhaps you shouldn't bash what you don't know about. The wild claims are one thing but you can't generalize everyone or the entire art with derogatory comments
Apparently we're not allowed to criticize each other until we all put on 4 oz gloves and use our CMA in t3h ring. Or have lots of back alley challenges. Therefore we must all accept the outragous claims, because we don't "prove ourselves" and therefore cannot claim any legitimacy in our arts. That was kinda his point, onyomi. We don't prove ourselves, we're just as fake as the arts we're calling out. I know, it's twisted and completely illogical, but it apparently makes sense in his mind.
Because CMAs don't invent animal-based styles just for the fun of it. But suuure, the Mongoose is definitely an animal I want to fight like! Just look at this killer fellow: Most authentic chinese martial arts have at least one believable origin story; one that doesn't try to mix egyptian mongooses (mongeese?), kenpo, the Da Mo myth and d33dly Shaolin Monks. Nope, no one can. Thing is, we have a pretty good idea what is a real, authentic CMA, and this is quite weird, we can't seem to apply these to Shou Shu. And add to this the fact that it's never mentionned in historical documents...
