Shorei Kosho Ryu?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Korpy, May 24, 2007.

  1. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Interesting how you couldn't seem to get these same thoughts out on a post given how much you claim to train Kosho.

    Martial talk is accessible from my work computer, most forums are not. Thus, I tend to post there more than I have for a while and less here. Too bad you're banned over there or you could do more than cut and paste posts.
  2. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Danjo, I try not to give the secrets out, I am just a lowly not ranked you would not put much merit in what I say. LOL

    Banned was a thing that had to be I guess. At the time I was just to hot to handle and that is now history. Kaith could allow it but I doubt it LOL...I am not into the green red and gold marks, but I see you do believe in being a good guy and not as wild and wooly as you have been at other locations :D

    I have tried to lead some of you, to the locations where they can obtain the information and not just argue with me about my high rank :p
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2007
  3. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    Thanks for sharing even more locations where I can spend time while watching my son.

    This thread still lives?


  4. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    If you weren't into giving out the secrets, then why would you post a link to someone that supposedly does?

    If you had been banned from there only once, you'd have more of a point.
  5. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    The point is I am not unhappy, does not bother me. Does not make me crazy, the more I am allowed to post my thoughts the more others post their's.

    Similar to the story Dan T. (nuck) is telling about "Ohana". On a different topic. Very informative I'd say.

    As far as Kosho I had explained how I look at it, and my interpretation many times. This is one thought:

    Others have mentioned this:

    Then my take of it is I like the Kosho word because of the pine tree and the aspect of Carpentry and Musashi. I have said it many times.

    For you to have failed to have gone to the meeting, I went out of my way for you, was the last time I have taken you seriously to want to learn about it.

    Here is a short story:
    Perhaps one reason this kind of behavior strikes Western observers as alien (even frightening) is that whereas Confucianism emphasizes the imitation of outward forms, most Western religions downgrade ritual in favor of deep spiritual growth. This conflict was summed up by Elizabeth Gray Vining, the Quaker educator sent to Japan in 1946 as a private tutor to the present emperor, then crown prince. In her book "Windows for the Crown Prince," Mrs. Vining commented at length on the difficulties she and her charge's Japanese tutors had in reconciling the different approaches of the two cultures toward the concept of form.

    "The point was made that outward forms of respect when carefully engaged in, produce corresponding inward attitudes, a Confucian doctrine that may have a sound psychological basis. My own theory, of course, was precisely the opposite, that inward attitude comes first; the spirit determines the outward expression and the ultimate form; that really significant changes of behavior must start from within. It was a discussion repeated many times over while I was in Japan, with the Japanese invariably supporting the outward forms approach and I the inner spirit. But perhaps in the end we might agree that both are necessary."

    Sadly, many foreigners who have experienced Japanese ideas of morality and its proper inculcation, have failed to exhibit Mrs. Vining's tolerance. Gary Katzenstein, a young computer scientist who spent a year at Sony headquarters in Japan on Henry Luce fellowship complained in his book "Funny Business" that he was confronted by irrationally applied rules everywhere he went. As the back cover of the book explains "Katzenstein is overwhelmed by the irrationality of Japanese work and social practices.... A fear of standing out from the crowd pervades all. Rules are followed blindly to the letter." Katzenstein did not last a full year at Sony.
    Rules and behavior are an interesting subject. One that needs to be studied and looked at very seriously.
    Your continued onslaught of attacks is fine, for it is not something I concern myself with. Others don't take you seriously or else I would think they would ban you.

    What do you think of the story Dan? Do you think the rules and practices of "Ohana" are similar to the story?
  6. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Ummm...The "rules of ohana"? It basically means family, brotherhood, comrades in arms etc. It basically means a genuiness of spirit shown to those who come in and participate in good faith. I been treated pretty good by these old boys. You might not like it since some of the originals called themselves the Auld Lane Gang etc. given your desire to exterminate those types.
  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

  8. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Last edited: Jun 3, 2007
  9. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Gary, it looks like we have a description of what the techniques of Kosho Ryu are now, i.e., "basics" that are combined in different ways (though I still fail to see how this differs tremendously from otehr branches of Kenpo etc.). So give us a typical class and what it's run like if you don't mind. walk us through it.
  10. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    That doesnt sound too bad of an idea.
  11. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    I saw this and thought I would first post this so you can read it, I generally put a link, but I don't think many follow the links. A little long but worthy of the read I believe.

    What is Kosho Shorei Ryu?

    Philosophy - Look for Similarities - Natural Law - Objective - Kempo


    Kosho literally means old pine tree. Shorei means school of encouragement. A traditional ryu is a school of thought pertaining to an art form. A Japanese Buddhist priest meditated under an old pine tree around 1235 AD and received enlightenment, as he discovered universal laws and natural principles pertaining to our existence and the resolution of conflict. Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International encourages students to move toward this same enlightenment through studying natural law.

    Kempo means Fist Law. This is the Kosho Shorei Ryu form of martial arts; but it is more. The predecessors of Kempo are Chuan Fa, in China, and before that Vajra Mukti in India. Kempo's philosophy is to study and understand man's relationship with nature. Kempo is the study of natural law pertaining to mankind. Kempo does not just deal with the physical arts; it also deals with the spiritual side of oneself, and mankind's understanding of itself.

    Traditionally, Kempo students have studied much more than only the martial arts. They also study philosophical classics, including the I Ching, the Book of Changes. They study the five elements and the In and Yo (Yin and Yang in Chinese). They understand the principle of balance, and how one can, through understanding balance, exist harmoniously with the whole of mankind. Within their own realm, in their own reality, they learn how to adjust their reality, behavior, or physical presence within others' perception of reality. Primarily, they study themselves. Body, mind, and spirit. This microcosm leads to the understanding of all things.

    Kempo, then, means study, and practice, and the discipline of study and practice. The understanding of this philosophy, the embodiment of this practice, and the reality of this study prepares the Kempo-ka well for a possible conflict. Defending one's self becomes very easy. Kosho is a way of life and an understanding of the process of life. Understanding the process of a fight is the key. Techniques used in a fight are only a small part of that process. What happens before that point is of primary importance.

    The study, and practice of this study and practice, has been used successfully throughout history by Kosho Ryu warrior-monks and other practitioners. In the late 1500s, Shaka-In, the temple grounds on which the now-famous old pine tree still stands, was attacked by 5000 samurai. Using Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo, the 400 monks living and training there engaged in combat against the onslaught, succesfully protecting some of the most important artifacts and property of the temple grounds, including the famous old pine tree itself.

    The martial prowess of the Kosho Shorei monks was well-known among the Japanese at the time, and was feared by many Daimyo as well as their swordsmen. It is the practice of this philosophy of study which gave the monks their edge. This philosophy was adopted by many of Japan's greatest and most famous swordsmen, including Musashi Miyamoto.

    The success of Kosho Ryu today is apparent in the large numbers of students and teachers gravitating to these studies. Many teachers with decades of experience are re-examining their training based on the uniqueness and startling pertinence of what they see in a Kosho Ryu seminar. Many of these teachers and students have said that the combat-effectiveness of Kosho is simply at a higher level than what they had seen previously. Kosho Ryu concepts had often never even been considered by many in their previous training.

    Although it has been taught by some that Kempo was improved in Hawaii to accommodate the large American street brawler, this is absurd. Principles of training capable of preparing 400 monks to wage battle against 5000 samurai need not be improved to be appropriate for a bar fight! Those who felt they improved Kempo obviously did not understand what they were taught in the first place. The philosophical teachings, which were largely ignored by many of Mitose Sensei's early students with the notable exception of the late Thomas Young, play a major role in the manifestation of the physical combative arts of Kosho Ryu. Without them, True understanding of Kempo is not possible. Kempo is not a martial art. It is much more.

    Look for Similarities

    The Kosho Ryu practitioner studies natural law. In so doing, he has the ability to see similarities in all movement. Therefore he holds no prejudice toward other styles or martial systems. Kosho Ryu practitioners understand that the only real differences between martial arts pertain to the cultures from which they come. Cultures produce various tendencies which shape the way arts are taught. Although teaching methods are delivery modes for the understanding of the essence of an art, the arts themselves are very similar. Bruce Juchnik Hanshi is well-qualified to make a statement such as this. He holds mastery-level knowledge and certification in over ten distinct martial art-forms.

    Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo originated in Japan. To practitioners, Kosho Ryu's Chinese roots are apparent in its basic philosophy. Because Kosho teaches them to look for similarities, they see no substantial difference between Kosho and studies from Korea, Indonesia, China, or America. All human beings move basically the same way. All motion is related. The same emotions are experienced by all of mankind. Fundamentally, human beings are similar, throughout continents, cultures, and time.

    Natural Law

    The study of physics is only part of the understanding of Natural Law. Kosho Ryu Kempo-ka also study the natural laws of our basic individual philosophy. In so doing one can understand the physics of both our internal and external structures. Students seek to understand who they are as they relate to others based upon their past experiences and prejudices. Body movement changes much like personalities change, based on an individual's momentary and long-term mind-sets and their physical prejudices. Understanding that both themselves and potential adversaries are governed by these natural laws, Kempo-ka apply a great many strategies to handle potential conflicts successfully. In so doing, it is possible to defeat an opponent without throwing a blow. In fact, it is possible to defeat an opponent by strategically manipulating his ki (mind set in this case), based on an understanding of his prejudices, in such a way as to make him decide to never attack you in the first place! Psychology is physics applied to the mind.


    The objective of the Kosho Ryu Kempo-ka is to be able to relate to everything, abandon his prejudices, and thus rid conflict from his life. Conflict is usually created from differences (the opposite of similarities) of opinion, pertaining to physical or philosophical prejudices. Once you eliminate conflict, emotional or physical, and understand laws and principles, you learn to see yourself as the root of all of your conflict. Once the source of conflict is known, it can be eliminated. Happiness is the result. Kempo-ka become content, able to harmonize with and accept life's events, and able to control their environment. Once you learn to control yourself and your environment, controlling or redirecting an attacker is possible as well.


    Kempo literally translates from Japanese as Fist Law. Its meaning can be traced back to what is called the mudra, which are hand postures. Each of Kempo's hand postures represent both the physical and the spiritual realm. These realms are inexorably linked. Kempo itself is an entity. It is not a style of martial arts or a form of techniques. Unfortunately, in our society today it is largely looked upon as such.

    James Mitose Sensei, explained that Kempo is a philosophy. Mitose brought Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo from Japan to the U. S. Kosho is a philosophy of growth, of study, and of struggle. The martial arts become simple, even self-evident, through understanding the process of growth, study, and struggle.

    Within Kosho Ryu Kempo, there are many sub-arts of study. The purpose of the study of various different art-forms is to learn to see the similarities in all of them. Three general categories of study are the healing arts, the cultural arts, and the martial arts. The study of healing arts reveals a relationship with the martial arts. The martial arts would be looked upon as healing arts from the point of view of a practitioner who wishes to simply study from the martial standpoint. The cultural arts play the same role. Part of the study of cultural arts is the study of history. History must also be studied in the martial and healing arts. Language is also studied from all perspectives. The study of the Japanese language creates the ability in the disciplined student of Kosho Ryu to be able to understand the history and cultures of other people. This in turn ties in with the philosophy of looking for similarities, ridding themselves of prejudice and conflict, and creating happiness and peace in their lives.

    Each of the many sub-arts of study in Kosho Ryu eventually intertwine. Aruki waza, for instance, which is a combative technique involving proper posturing toward an opponent in bujutsu, is also utilized in the studies of swordsmanship, shodo (ancient Japanese brush calligraphy), and healing arts. This type of lesson initially brings students to confusion. Eventually, it allows them to understand Mu, nothingness. That is the purpose of the study of Kempo in Kosho Shorei Ryu. Once that is accomplished, one sees everything, and at the same time realizes that it is really nothing.


    Contents copyright 1996-2003 Sei Kosho Shorei Kai International. Hosted by Website designed by Trueform Designs

    Hope this helps.

    As far as classes go they vary, sometimes it is individual learning and training in the kata that is necessary for the belt rank they are in and attempting to obtain, sometimes it is all doing the same thing as in training, in the drill we call the octagon.
    Which is a combination of hand and foot drills. Positions of the octagon being called out and the students responding to it by foot movements and hand movements (blocks strikes etc.)

    Sometime's they start at the kata that is the simplest and go through to the kata that is the highest person there that evening, they perform the kata they are doing and other's observe.

    The kata's are then broken down and explained as to what the movements are for, and can take quite a bit of time in the application of two man sets.

    Training in weapons might be the class of the day (numerous).

    I'll write more later, busy day.

  12. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Then there is this tid bit of information

    Kosho Shorei Ryu Kempo

    The Kosho Shorei Ryu Bujutsu (martial arts) are based on the study of the preparatory arts. This life-study occurs 24 hours a day, and is the most important aspect of Kosho Shorei, True Self-defense. The preparatory arts teach the Kempo-ka to control his environment in a way that inhibits conflict from taking place. In this way, he is able to live in harmony with his environment and the people in it. The preparatory arts allow students to structure themselves such that they effectively prevent self-generation of what we call negative stimuli. This element of control allows one to eliminate self-conflict.

    Negative stimuli are any use of our psycho-physical systems which are less than 100% efficient in the resolution of the specific situational conflict we are within. For example, we all have two forms of vision: peripheral and tunnel vision. Kosho Shorei Kempo Bujutsuka, who study the natural truths or laws pertaining to the martial arts primarily, understand this, and its significance. By studying themselves and their systems of functionality, they are most effectively able to use their skills and attributes in any situation. The significance of understanding visual modes is great: Our eyes send nerve impulses to the brain to allow us to perceive and react to environmental stimuli. The cones, which are cells on the retina responsible for perceiving form and color, are greater in number in the center of the retina than on the periphery. Therefore, when we look directly at something, much more detail is perceived, sent to the brain, and processed. This takes time. Tunnel vision makes relatively quick reaction impossible due to the volume of information we ask our brain to process in this mode. Tunnel vision should be used when we want to intently study something. Peripheral vision, on the other hand, was designed for detecting motion. The smaller number of cones on our retina's periphery do not pass along as much information pertaining to color, depth-perception, subtle shading and toning of objects. What we receive is simply where objects in our environment are, and where they are going. The brain then calculates speed and other factors that allow us to deal with our environment. The understanding of peripheral vision's benefits, and specific ancient methods of employing this understanding in a self-defense situation is one of Kosho Ryu's fundamental studies. The additional understanding of posturing, weightedness from left to right leg, hearing and visual ranges, and other factors create quite a large bit of preparation students of Kosho Ryu can use to control an opponent. However, these factors are used mostly in the physical arts, which are the lowest levels of Kosho Ryu Bujutsu.

    True Kosho Shorei happens in the mind. Perception of a potential attacker's intent, based upon things such as his demeanor, flesh and eye-white color, degree of apparent excitement or agitation, tone of voice, body language, verbal expression, and of course his words and gestures all help us determine his situation, including his weaknesses. Kosho Ryu teaches you apply this, along with your understanding of your own psychology, in order to better understand yourself as well. We cannot understand attackers until we understand ourselves. Perception of ourselves is not only important for self-diagnosis and self improvement, but also to understand how an attacker might perceive us, and therefore what he might do.

    All of these aspects of Kosho Ryu preparatory arts are important within the context of self-defense against a physical attack, but are less important in the entire scheme of things. Our true enemy is not some physical attacker, it is our own mind. Once we study it until we understand ourselves and our spirit, we can consider ourselves safer from disaster. Nothing is truly disastrous unless we interpret it so. We deal with situations on an hourly basis that attack our body, mind, and spirit, but we may never be physically attacked by an assailant. So, Kosho Ryu logically teaches to put energy where it does the most good, in defeating negative perceptions, mostly to what we nowadays call stress. The same Laws apply to the physical realm that apply to the mind. The bujutsu put us in simulated physically stressful situations, and teach us how to control them. This is Kempo. For more information, see the Philosophy of Kempo.

    Another aspect of Kosho Ryu bujutsu is the escaping arts. The escaping arts are practiced in order to teach you to avoid physical conflict of any type. By understanding natural principles pertaining to eye-training, hearing, sensitivity to movement and other things involved in mastering the senses, a student can totally escape from harm, never being touched by a would-be assailant. The cornerstone of the escaping arts is awareness. This was taught and practiced in Hawaii by James Mitose Sensei and by his senior Hawaiian student, Thomas Young. In his last eleven years, Professor Young worked hand-in-hand with Bruce Juchnik Hanshi to give him insights he needed to preserve the wishes of Mitose Sensei concerning the importance of the escaping arts and the mastery of the senses. It is interesting to note here that this type of oral one-on-one transmission of the Okuden (inner secrets) of Kosho Ryu and other ancient art-forms is common. These non-tough-guy type arts are never widely popular. Unfortunately, ego is the motivation for many students. Ego is what prevents most students from investing their time into the study of these arts: they don't look as flamboyant as jump-spinning hook-kicks to the head. But, they work! Kosho deals with reality. Escaping arts represent the highest form of physical martial arts. They do no damage to the attacker, and therefore do not injure the spirit of the would-be victim. This is Kosho Shorei.

    Next in order of preference, the Kosho Bujutsuka would choose manipulatory arts. These arts, which are widely studied early in the training of Kosho Ryu students, involve folding arts such as throws, joint-locks, holds and pins, and chokes. They also include non-fatal strikes to the limbs of the attacker during his rotation. All Kosho Ryu weaponry is taught such that it can be used to manipulate and control an attacker, or escape from an attacker without causing him harm, as well as in ways which will damage or kill an attacker. Manipulatory arts would be the main Kosho Ryu bujutsu sub-arts used in the context of law enforcement. These arts are used to prevent the opponent from gaining the body posturing and body alignments necessary to effectively continue to attack, and/or subdue him without inflicting permanent injury. Of course, civilian practitioners could choose manipulatory arts as a means to make escape, or in other circumstances where escape is not an option, such as when an attacker is after a nearby child or other person who needs protection and may not be able to escape.

    Next, the Kosho Ryu bujutsuka would opt for controlling strikes. This involves shocking the opponent with substantially debilitating strikes to areas which control the rotation of the body, such as the head, shoulders, hips, and legs. This vast and important study comprises much of the training time of beginners in Kempo bujutsu.

    Next, the Kosho Ryu bujutsuka would choose striking arts. These are broken up into Onna No Atemi (Female Strikes), and Otoko No Atemi (Male Strikes). Onna No Atemi teaches the importance of 90 degree posturing, which is essential to the methods in Kosho Ryu bujutsu. This study, which comes directly from the Sho Chiku Bai, is one of the foundations of the art. When postured 90 degrees to the opponent, you make him effectively weightless in attempts to continue his attack. This makes him simple to escape from, control, or damage. Although Onna striking weapons and even the strikes themselves are soft and weak, the impact is tremendous to the opponent in his contorted position, and capable of crushing his spine and breaking his neck, back, and leg with one "soft" blow. All Kosho Ryu strikes are actually male then, in essence, to the opponent.

    Unfortunately, many other arts, even some of those of the Kempo lineage, do not practice this way. This results in the direct or nearly-direct conflict of force from the two parties involved, which often damages the striking limb of the practitioner attempting to defend himself! What kind of self-defense is that? Misunderstanding of the proper base for striking techniques is also frequent. Wide bases capable of allowing practitioners to generate maximum striking power are not meant to be used when striking opponents who are moving toward you! This is obvious to practitioners who study the natural laws of physics applied to combat. If you're not sure about this, consider the following example: A speeding trailer truck is your opponent, complete with mass and power, and headed straight at you. Do you stand in its path, in your strongest martial arts' stance and attempt a powerful punch or kick straight to the radiator? That would be the wide base solution, with no regard for mass and momentum. What is the Onna No Atemi solution? Simple: move out of the way as you lightly toss anything weighing a mere 5 pounds or more up to the height of the driver's side of the windshield. This soft strike will cause massive damage to the visual plane of the opponent, causing him to lose control of his motion, and probably crash as you walk calmly away. At the very least, this speeding bully would be unable to turn quickly enough to re-attack you in your mobile state. Were he to try to do so at high speed, he would probably contort himself to a such a degree that he'd roll over and crash! This is the power of Onna No Atemi. It is an understanding which comes from the study of Natural Laws of motion.

    Otoko No Atemi (male percussion) involves the connection of the upper and lower-body spheres of rotation, using proper triangulation of movements, muscle groups, and meridians to engage maximum energy in the destructive striking force to a stationed opponent. Elements of Earth and Heaven must connect at a specific triangulated point for maximum effect. To understand this, we study the Tao. Stationed opponents are not people who are standing around that we've decided to attack. Opponents are able to be frozen in motion temporarily, or put into positions from which they cannot move without damaging themselves, by studying Kosho Ryu bujutsu and understanding how it is that movement takes place. Again, we return to the study of the self and of natural laws of motion. By creating these frozen positions in the opponent, we create a void in time which we can use to buy the time necessary for the generation of massive striking power. This is the mode in which wide base applications are valid, and power may appropriately be generated by the practitioner defending himself.

    When it comes to the study of the striking arts, it is necessary for the Kosho Ryu practitioner to engage in the structure of body types, posturing, and positioning. This is most effectively done through the study of healing arts. Knowing these things tells a practitioner how to adjust his strike to accomplish his goal pertaining to the opponent's anatomy. One linking point between the martial and healing arts studies is Kosho Ryu's Muscular-Skeletal-Internal Striking Theory (MSI). On an opponent with large muscle-mass for instance, muscular blows would cause debilitating cramping. Certain skeletal blows, to the upper ribs for instance, would be ineffective, but others, to the lower legs possibly, would break bones. When massive damage is called for, blows to internal organs through the meridian structure would be used, especially on a body-builder-type, due to the fact that he's stretched his skin tightly over certain areas, actually making these types of strikes more effective! Knowledge of the octagon from the Kosho Ryu Sho Chiku Bai mon, Kosho 7/10 and negative striking methods (which you can find out about at seminars), would be employed here as well to cause the internal damage energetically through organic meridians and tsubo (pressure points). A Kosho Ryu practitioner studies the nervous system, the musculo-skeletal system, and the organic-meridial system, as well as body dynamics and kinetics through the observation of natural movement. All of this knowledge is necessary to know where the targets are that are appropriate for the desired level of damage based on the context of the situation. More importantly, by understanding motion, and dealing with live, moving opponents in Kosho training, students also study when the target is exposed and in the ideal yin state to accept the blow we choose with maximum effect. The study of the combination of tsubo-targets, natural movement and rotation, angle of rotation, breathing, and posturing in relationship to the strike and striking angle determine the type of blow used, and its effect.

    In addition to striking arts, grappling arts and throwing arts are covered at length in Kosho Ryu schools. The same laws and principles apply to both. Furthermore, Kosho Ryu sees no difference between striking arts and throwing arts other than intent. Rotation takes place in all motion. By studying natural laws of motion and balance, we can understand kuzushi, imbalance. All movement requires a temporary state of imbalance to regain the next balance point. Without imbalance, movement is impossible. Movement is a falling process. Therefore, when we continue the imbalanced movement of an attacker, we make it impossible for him to regain balance. This is the process used to freeze the motion of an opponent used in Kosho Ryu's Otoko No Atemi. Freezing the opponent disallows him leverage from either side of his body and traps him using his own skeletal structure to do so. We settle our body-weight strategically upon the structure of the opponent so that he becomes our base, and is therefore skeletally frozen beneath us. To do so, we use a heaven-to-earth direction. In the Kumiuchi-type grappling (ancient battlefield wrestling-techniques of the samurai which gave birth to jujutsu), and in judo based systems, the same rotations take place, but are applied in an earth-to-heaven fashion, which requires some power on the part of the thrower. In Kosho Ryu bujutsu, no power is necessary because the law of gravity acting merely on our properly-positioned body-weight accomplishes our goal. To throw an opponent instead of trapping him in a skeletal lock, we simply alter the angle of the settling of our body-weight. It is easy to crush him, breaking his neck, back, and leg, simply by dropping quickly into his locked skeleton with an Otoko attitude, but of course this is largely unnecessary in actuality since the opponent is trapped.

    The depth to which Kosho Ryu takes the study of fighting arts is due to its seven hundred and fifty years of development.

    Along with weaponry which is something we can discuss later. :D

  13. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Pretty long winded, but there should be more care taken in being accurate.
    If your going to embrace all things Japanese in your terminology and history, then it should be correct.
    THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN THE JAPANESE MARTIAL ARTS AS A "KEMPO-KA or KENPO-KA". This is a improper usage of Japanese martial arts terms, and shouldn't be proliferated and passed on to future generations of practitioners.
    The proper Japanese term for practitioner of the kenpo/kempo arts is, KENSHI. It doesn't matter whether you spell it keMpo or kenpo. The term is KENSHI.
    If you want to claim to be a Japanese art, with a Japanese heritage, then it would only make sense to use proper Japanese martial arts terms.
  14. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Good point.

    I'll point that out to the web-site person.

    That is it, nothing else to correct?

    I found the term kenshi at "wiki" but alas no help:

    But I did find this.

    Kenshi, Miyamoto Musashi

    Miyamoto Musashi was a great figure in Japanese history. He was an effective military leader, for his great strategies. Musashi was also a great artist, being able to produce paintings, sculptures, and calligraphy which have become one of the finest among others in Japanese history.

    Musashi however, is best known for his great skill as a swordsman. Today, he is remembered as a kenshi, or "sword saint" for his supreme skill with a sword.

    Musashi's full name was Shinmen Musashi no Kami Fujiwara no Genshin. He eventually took the name Miyamoto to honour his birthplace, a village named Miyamoto in Mimasaka Province of the vast archipelago of Japan. Musashi was born roughly around 1584.

    At the age of seven, the father of Musashi died. Later on during his childhood, his mother eventually passed he was raised by his uncle, a Buddhist priest. At this time, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, a great noblemen was warring against other clans for the unity of Japan and the title of shogun. Eventually, Musashi would enlist in Hideyoshi's army. The Japanese emperor was suppose to be the supreme ruler of Japan. Yet for several hundred years, the shoguns (military rulers) ruled in his name.

    The competing warrior clans were Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Nobunaga Ida, Takeda Shingen, and one of the smartest and most ruthless military leader the world has known, Ieyasu Tokugawa, who eventually became shogun and established the Tokugawa Dynasty lasting for more than 250 years.

    At the age of thirteen, Musashi was of great size. It is believed that at this age, he slew a man in combat. His opponent was of the Shinto Ryu school of military arts, Arima Kigei. Kigei died vomiting blood when the strong Musashi had thrown him to the ground and beat him with a stick.

    At the age of sixteen, Musashi decided to leave his home village to make a name for himself as a warrior. He embarked on journeys seeking duels and contests. One such warrior he defeated was Tadashima Akiyama. Around this time, he enlisted in Hideyoshi's army. By 1600, Hideyoshi was dead, and Mitsunari Ishida succeeded his position ruling for Hideyoshi's son, Hideyori. Tokugawa forced Ishida in a decisive battle at Seki ga Hara, where Tokugawa and his allies battled against Ishida and his allies for three days resulting in 70,000 warrior lives lost. The survivors in Ishida's routed force were hunted down by Tokugawa. Musashi was able to escape by crawling among corpses for days hiding from Tokugawa's patrol. He would drink water from muddy puddles to survive.

    With the war behind Musashi, he roamed Japan for nearly a decade fighting duels and perfecting his skills. He went up to Kyoto, the capital, when he was twenty-one. This was the scene of his vendetta agains the Yoshioka family. The Yoshiokas had been fencing instructors to the Ashikaga house for generations. Later forbidden to teach Kendo by lord Tokugawa, the family became dyers, and are dyers today. Munisai, Musashi's father, had been invited to Kyoto some years before by the Shogun Ashikaga Yoshiaka. Munisai was a competent swordsman, and an expert with the "jitte", a kind of iron truncheon with a tongue for catching sword blades. The story has it that Munisai fought three of the Yoshiokas, winning two of the duels, and perhaps this has some bearing on Musashi's behavior towards the family.

    Yoshioka Seijiro, the head of the family, was the first to fight Musashi, on the moor outside the city. Seijiro was armed with a real sword, and Musashi with a wooden sword. Musashi laid Seijiro out with a fierce attack and beat him savagely as he lay on the ground. The retainers carried their lord home on a rain-shutter, where for shame he cut off his samurai topknot.

    Musashi longered on in the capital, and his continued presence further irked the Yoshiokas. The second brother, Denshichiro, applied to Musashi for a duel. As a military ploy, Musashi arrived late on the appointed day, and seconds after the start of the fight he broke his opponent's skull with one blow of his wooden sword. Denshichiro was dead. The house issued yet another challenge with Hanshichiro, the young son of Seijiro, as champion. Hanshichiro was a mere boy, not yet in his teens. The contest was to be held by a pine tree adjacent to ricefields. Musashi arrived at the meeting place well before the appointed time and waited in hiding for his enemy to come. The child arrived dressed formally in war gear, with a party of well-armed retainers, determined to do away with Musashi. Musashi waited concealed in the shadows, and just as they were thinking that he had thought better of it and had decided to leave Kyoto, he suddenly appeared in the midst of them, and cut the boy down. Then, drawing both swords, he cut a path through them and made his escape.

    The use of two swords was totally opposite of tradition. The regular samurai was armed with a katana and wakizashi (a shorted sword). Only the katana was used in battle while the wakizashi was to signify rank. But innovative as Musashi was, he was always striving to confuse his opponents, fighting with a sword in each hand. His two-weapon method of swordsmanship became known as the nito-ryu style.

    Musashi had fought in more than 60 duels by the age of 29 and was victorious in all. On some occasions, he even fought whole kenjutsu schools. Sometimes, he received requests for duels since his popularity had spread. Other times, it was just because he had provoked or angered them. Travelling from province to province, Musashi made a name for himself striking down his opponents using a wooden bokken (wooden sword) while his opponents used katanas, chain and sickle fighters, and even spears. The name he made for himself was not just as a skilled swordsman, but a rather strange oddball. His appearance was wild and unkempt. He would often sleep in caves afraid of being ambushed rather than staying in a comfortable inn. All this was for a purpose though, for he was a master strategist. His bizarre behaviour may have been planned to frighten and confuse his rivals.

    This picture displays Musashi on Ganryu Island, where his last duel took place. Above is legendary Japanese actor Toshiro Mifune portraying him in the 1954 epic Samurai Trilogy
    Miyamoto Musashi’s most famous duel, and also his last one took place in 1612 on Ganryu Island, off the coast of Buzen Province. His opponent was Sasaki Kojiro, a young man who had developed a strong fencing technique known as Tsubame-gaeshi, or "swallow counter", inspired by the motion of a swallow's tail in flight. Kojiro was a kenjutsu instructor for the lord of the province, Hosokawa Tadaoki. The duel was set at 8:00 the next morning. hat night Musashi left his lodging and moved to the house of Kobayashi Taro Zaemon. This inspired the rumor that awe of Kojiro's subtle technique had made Musashi run away afraid for his life. The next day at eight o'clock Musashi could not be woken until a prompter came from the officials assembled on the island. He got up, drank the water they brought to him to wash with, and went straight down to the shore. As Sato rowed across to the island Musashi fashioned a paper string to tie back the sleeves of his kimono, and cut a wooden sword from the spare oar. When he had done this he lay down to rest.

    When the boat had beached, Sasaki and the officials were shocked to see the strange figure of Musashi, messy hair tied in a towel, and his wooden sword in a guard position. The irritated Sasaki drew his katana, a fine blade made by Nagamitsu of Bizen, and threw away his scabbard. Musashi saw this gesture and said, “You have lost, for you have no more use for your sheath.?He must have said this because why would Sasaki throw away his scabbard if he won? This gesture might have been defined my Musashi that Sasaki was thinking he was going to lose. At least that’s my interpretation of it.

    Kojiro was provoked into making the first cut and Musashi dashed upward at his blade, bringing the oar down on Kojiro's head. As Kojiro fell, his sword, which had cut the towel from Musashi's head, cut across the hem of his divided skirt. Musashi noted Kojiro's condition and bowed to the astounded officials before running back to his boat. According to Eiji Yoshikawa’s classic novel, “Musashi? he felt a spiritual awakening. For the first time in his life, a tear had been shed for his fallen enemy. This was his last duel, yet he would teach kenjutsu, and fight under the banner of the Tokugawas.

    Later in his life, Musashi became known as a great artist. His paintings, sculptures, and calligraphy are among the finest in Japanese history. He was also an accomplished man of letters, known for his poems (now lost) and his masterwork, “The Book of Five Rings? a guide to strategy and swordsmanship that was completed a month just before his death in 1645 of natural causes.

    Musashi is remembered as a kenshi , or "sword saint". For despite the violence of his life, he had truly dedicated himself to a higher calling. This dedication of Miyamoto Musashi makes him a martial arts master.


    The Book of Five Rings, By Miyamoto Musashi

    Martial Arts Masters, By Ngo Vinh-Hoi

    A good book to get would be The Book of Five Rings. It is a guide of strategy written by Musashi himself.
    ©1997-2004 Kenneth Leung
    Created on June 27, 1997
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    So they have two-man sets? What are those like?
  16. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    To much information to take the time for one who really does not care.

    Notice the effort to write the above information.

    But you should get the idea.

  17. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well, first off, the site you refer me to is not Kosho but rather EPAK, so it has no relevance unless you're saying that in addition to the wholesale plundering of Okinawan kata, Kosho also takes EPAK two-man sets as it's own. Does Kosho not have any original material?

    Secondly, I am very interested. Always have been. What I have generally got instead of real answers concerning Kosho over the last few years is evasion and BS. It's only in the past few days that we have started getting people to commit in writing that Kosho Ryu is essentially Okinawan basics and Katas taken wholesale from other existing arts. I find it odd that you would admit to this given your propensity to back up the Tracy/Sumner/Minnessota Fats claims that the art comes from Japan with no Okinawan connection. Perhaps you're finally seeing throught he BS on that one? Or not? I'm thinking?
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Here is the deal, similarity is a clue, so I thought it would be best to just post something similar. So yes, some of it is the Okinawan because of the the insert of the Robert Trias kata's, plus it is similar because of a few katas that came to Japan and Okinawa, from China.

    Pretty difficult to go anywhere trying to explain, as you continually regress to the childish stuff. You are nothing more than parroting other's... I believe much of this hostility is because of an encounter years ago with your teacher and Al Tracy.

    What do you think? Are you just doing some stirring because of that, or are you truly interested?

    Much of what the Tracy's mention are things that they discovered along the path of their journey. Much of what is mentioned about Mitose was because of Bruce J. finding him and bringing it to light again in the late 70's and 80's and then forging on with his desire, with what he was given as a clue and to then create his school of thought, based on his findings.

    How about this have you ever talked to Thomas Mitose about the information he mentions about his dad?
    So Japanese stuff is not in Mitose, even though there is the connection of the Yoshida's? (you don't believe he was a Yoshida on his mothers side?).
    You figure he stayed in Hawaii? Pretty lame if you ask me, if that is your true thought...
    Two man sets.
    Two man sets are in most arts, that do drills. Techs are drills. I explained to you the part that is Mitose many times. So you are regurgetating again your old thought. Bringing up remarks about others, when you really should look at what is taught you, and where it really came from.

    How about the term Kenshi (sword saint)? Do you believe that means "Kenpo man"?
    As John mentions "The proper Japanese term for practitioner of the kenpo/kempo arts is, KENSHI", or as it is used regarding, Musashi?

    Have you read about the name (kenpo) as it is applied to the Yoshioka family in the book about Miyamoto Musashi, by Kenji Tokitsu?

  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    There is no evidence of any of these Kata coming to Japan from anywhere except Okinawa. They did, for the most part, come to Okinawa from China and from there to Japan. Same with the Makiwara that Mitose is shown using and advocating in his book; pure Okinawan invention.

    Well, I don't know about any encounter with Tracy, but most of my childish stuff is my own.

    As to my being interested in pinning down what Kosho Ryu really is, yes I'm interested.

    Juchnik sounds like he's patched together a mish mash of stuff and calls it Kosho Ryu.

    Well, I was merely pointing out that Ted Sumner produced two conflicting documents about whether Mitose went to Japan. One says he did, the other that he didn't. I think I embarassed him when I pointed out the contradiction because he wanted to be admired by his underlings at SJK for his brilliant discovery etc. Sorry to rain on his parade of self aclaim. I have no idea whether Mitose went to Japan. If he did, then he lied on his marraige certificate (What? Mitose Lie?). If he didn't, then he lied about that. Can't have it both ways.

    Um, so you're saying that the two man sets originally came from Mitose rather than the other way around? I thought Kosho had no set techniques? hmmmm...

    I don't speak Japanese.

    Nope. How about enlightening us with what it says rather than just being cryptic for a change?
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Juchnik sounds like he's patched together a mish mash of stuff and calls it Kosho Ryu.
    That is in the realm of possibility for sure.

    Regarding "kenpo" as it is applied to the Yoshika, I have mentioned it many times, in posts.

    Good term regarding much of what is mentioned by the warriors and teacher's in the past and handed down in todays arts, I find anyway.

    So if I am like that, I guess it is because I have been treated similar and have to go find it myself. To seek gives you much back. If only listening to others that are parroting, it is not going to help much I have found.

    For example when I was writing to Al Dacasco and we e-mailed I found out he had not been in the service. Something another had parroted to me. I would have believed the other and not found out from Sifu Al if not e-mailing him.

    Last edited: Jun 10, 2007

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