Shorei Kosho Ryu?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Korpy, May 24, 2007.

  1. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    Where did I train?

    I trained Parker/Tracy kempo with friends, for a couple of years in basements and backyards in Oregon Wisconsin, where I lived when I was growing up after moving from Long Island, New York. They were students of a man named Larry Bennett. Not sure on the spelling of his name.

    They encouraged me to train with Villari's when that branch opened in town and I trained with them for about 5 years, reaching 3rd Brown with them(three stripes on my brown belt). The instructor in the school I trained with was Mary Murphy. You can see her on the Villari's website still. My brother Brent can be found in the Villari's lineage tree.

    I left the Madison school and went to train with Mike Murphy in Middleton (no relation to Mary) who had split away from the Villari's organization and associated himself with Kosho Ryu. Mike had trained in a number of arts while stationed in Japan in the Air Force and his training was quite a step up in regards to intensity and quality from what I had while training with Villari's.

    Mike asked Hanshi Juchnik to come out a number of times, I sincerely dont recall how many, and we also travelled to Chicago to attend classes and seminars in Chicago at Randy Stigall and David Champ's school.

    I dont recall the exact dates, not thinking at the time I would need to recite them, but I trained with Mike for about two more years.

    I practiced an average of 3 hours a day at that time. Monday through Friday, and often worked out for most of the day on Saturdays. Bored on Sundays, friends would sometimes gather and work out together as well.

    I trained with the Kyokushin people on and off for a number of years while going to Villari's. I never taught in their school, the offer was made and I turned it down.

    The instructor, Zeke Baraza, wanted me to keep the club at the University of Wisconsin going and said that I both knew the Kihon sufficiently to run the class and knew my kata well enough to teach. He took the time to ask the other students to watch me perform my kata and pointed out that I had spent some real time working on my forms as well as complimenting me on my skill in performing them. He also complimented my instructors on having really worked me hard to learn them.

    No, I didnt get any people to leave Kyokushin. No, I did not teach Kyokushin curriculum. The offer was there and I regret not continuing my training with Zeke, as he is truly a good person as well as an excellent practitioner. The point of mentioning this experience in my post was to point out that quality instruction was to be had from the Kosho people in my experience, not to talk about how truly awe inspiring my super duper skills might be or the skills to be had from Kosho. I apologize if you thought this was the case, it was not my intention.

    I practiced with the Aikido of Madison group, John Stone, whom I had also met while at clinics with Peter Raalston, Chen Hsin Tui Shou people and attended classes for a brief while.

    The compliments I received in the school were sincere, as well as my desire to continue to train. I just didnt feel like the atmosphere fit well with my goals and decided not to take up space there. Interestingly enough, one of the people who introduced me to Kenpo teaches there now, Kerri Connell.

    Mike Murphy closed his school and left town to return to his home town of West Bend Indiana, I didnt follow him and so I was at loose ends.

    I tried to run classes to keep the students together, more as a club, but people disintigrated from the group. This lasted about a year. The lesson appeared to be that not having a facility puts a big damper on the success of a club.

    I had known Nelson Ferreira (North Regional Director for the USKSF) for a long time, he had always encouraged me to train with him and I was always busy with Kem/npo things. I took the opportunity to train with him in Northern Shaolin.

    I think that answers your first question and a smattering of the others you listed.

    I would say that my experience with Kyokushin may be different because of the people I had contact with. There certainly is an attitude of 'put up or shutup' in regards to being able to show skill in Karate or any martial art with that group, but I find that seems to be true across the board. Certainly it does online.

    Certainly your questions to me feel that way.

    My experience with Aikido perhaps matches yours a bit better. There certainly is a sense of 'touching the cosmos' with the people whom I have met. But really, the Madison people seemed pretty genuine to me and were fairly inviting. The compliments I recieved arent indicitive of my being 'super' at anything, only a commentary upon the similiarities in the training I received and its quality.

    I havent practiced Kempo for over a decade now. My display would be sad indeed as I simply do not practice those skills anymore. My experience with the Kempo world was not all bright and shiny, but I certainly obtained some good experiences as well. I apologize that I dont have any footage of myself performing anything worth showing. Its certainly been too long.

    Thanks for the questions! Appreciate you took some interest in my training and history. Please understand that my response was not meant to cause you harm or insult you.

    Whether you realize it or not, your tone in your questions were fairly abbrasive. The internet sometimes takes away the humanity from the people to who you are communicating to.

    Overall, I trained in Kempo for about ten years before making a switch to practice chinese arts. It was broken at times with switching schools and working with people in overlaps from other styles.

    Best regards,

  2. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    Hello Mr Bishop!

    I wanted to travel at one time to train with people, but family and business ties simply made that impossible.

    Even knowing whom to train with would be a challenge, even for a Kem/npo insider. Everyone seems to be so angry all the time. I just wanted to learn good art. 'Good art' seems to change depending upon to whom you are speaking.

    'Return to the source' is always good advice. Kempo in the US certainly seems to have suffered from playing 'telephone'.

    Over time, my goals have changed. Now I would like simply to get back into decent shape, perhaps even fighting shape...whoa...that will take some work.

    Pursuit of corporate career and family can eat a tremendous amount of time (as well as adding the pounds with the stress and long hours sitting at a desk)

    Working out more consistently now and have lost a good peice of weight. Long road to hoe, but simply has to be done. Need to be able to keep up with my son when he finally learns to walk.


  3. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I was speaking in general to those who are really interested in seeing or learning Kosho Ryu. Kosho on the mainland seems to be a lot like JKD. You have Inosanto doing JKD with a Kali flavor. Hartsell doing it with a grappling flavor. Taky Kimura and Gary Dill doing it with yet other flavors.
    Like you seem to have found, the important thing is to train. As long as the system and instructor is sound, all training is good.
  4. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Thanks for expanding you answers Rob. My questions were meant to be a bit confrontational, but you answered them thouroughly and I appreciate it. In your initial posting, you had condensed your experience to such an extent that it was (I assume unintentionally) misleading. It sounded very much like you were claiming that the Kyokushin guys saw you walk in and just bowed down to your superior skills and turned the school over to you etc. Obviously, that's not what you were trying to say as you cleared up in your second post. Thanks for sharing and getting through my initial wall of scepticism. Many others never do (See Shawn's quote above for instance).

  5. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    I can appreciate that.

    If we were all in agreement all the time, wouldnt this be an extremely boring place to be? Who the heck tunes into the 'everybody agrees show'.

    On a side note: I am certain that Jerry Springer could be an excellent american martial arts practitioner. I think he has all the right moves.

  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned


    Actually Judo and Jujutsu are very similar, in fact Kano was quite upset when his art was not considered JuJutsu because of the name change, sport applictation only.

    I actually think of the ju in Ka Ju Ken Bo more on the side of, "Jujutsu" rather than Judo.

    I believe if you are taking the fighting side it should be more like Ju jutsu than what judo was considered by many as a sport, there was no sport in what Sijo was teaching, you should know that :confused:

    It is a very good art the reason Judo Gene likes the name, it is a complete art and not just a sport as Judo became for so long and was confused for a very long time.

    As far as your explanation you are wrong again, you are to simplistic in your approach, need to learn more about kanji, and less about the english translations.

    Donn Draeger has a very good explanation about it that I like.

  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Come on Dan you know Shawn's post was deleted, why would you say that?
    I find the people, with your confrontational approach, as self evident in your own insecutiry, part of the reason you are so easy to read. IMHO.

  8. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    If John Muro was taught Kosho why does Sijo mention he never heard of it until the time Mitose was in prison, and the time frame of Bruce and others with the man in prison? The Transcipt mentions it.

    CN: What did Mitose call his art and who did he learn it from?

    EMPERADO: Mitose called his art Kenpo Jujitsu. He told us that he had learned it from Choki Motobu. I never heard the term "Kosho Ryu Kenpo" until he went to prison and some other instructors visited him and got master certificates in Kosho Ryu. I also never heard from him the story about the Kosho family temple.


    John, the above is taken from your website.

    It actually is very humorous, if not sad :confused: and very misinformed.
  9. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    There you go Gary. Looking for something to twist. I was using the commonly used term today for the art, "Kosho Ryu".
    I knew my trying to be somewhat civil with you, and answer your questions about Leoning, Pung, and patches would come back and bite me. As they say, "no good deed go's unpunished".
    If your going to say Emperado was wrong in what he said about no "Kosho Ryu" being mentioned, then you need to also say Thomas Young was also wrong.
  10. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Absolutly correct, Charles Goodin mentioned it and I posted it, though it is said different at locations I have been at. I am not sure Thomas Young knew the term "Kosho" either.

    I agree with you and being civil is what I am doing. It is hard to be to humble and civil and get answers. It is similar to ask someone you really like or appreciate a question, and be to blunt and then be attacked as being disloyal, very hard line to stay on. One of the reasons I have some trouble with those who feel, if you don't believe every word you are not loyal...Not a stiuation I care for, to be honest.

    If you are using the term that is in use today and not what it was back then, oviously I am jumping the gun and should have said something like a question. To get your answer that you made in this post.

    I am not trying to be a snot. Anymore than you are when you don't say it perfect and I might not answer perfect...

    I was being a snot about the "Choki" mentioning, do you really think that is something Mitose said to Sijo?
    Really? Because it is so erronious John.

    I did not attack you I attacked the interview and statement that was made by Sijo.

    I truly appreciate your helping me out, does that mean I can not ask openly and honest about something, I disagree with. How should I do it?

    Tell me, so you don't feel like you are not appreciated. Should I start out with, excuse me, or I beg to differ? Danjo is brusque but we are getting along. I am trying to get this worked out for others to observe there are many stories and if it is around it needs to be up dated. IMHO...

    Personally I'd put a disclaimer on some of what was said years ago, similar to what you did in the Kajukenbo book...

    Last edited: May 27, 2007
  11. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    Well, if Emperado was the ONLY one who said it, I might wonder. But Since Mitose also told Richard Kim and Robert Trias the same thing, I tend to believe it. Where do you think that rumor started from in the first place? Whether it was true or not, Mitose sold a lot of books claiming a connection to Motobu. And in the end, that's all Mitose was about, making money, legally or illegally.
  12. napasifu

    napasifu New Member

    James Muro recieved his black belt from John Chow-Hoon. John Chow-Hoon trained in Danzan ryu jujitsu under and received his black belt knowledge from the late Sig Kufferath (who was Henry Okazaki's chief instructor), and also trained in Kenpo jitsu and was promoted by (as i have heard it, could be wrong) by Thomas Young.
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I believe it is interesting the twist that has been applied to the training of Mitose and his family. According to the Tracy's he is a Yoshida from the mothers side. The Yoshidas were pretty well known, especially right after the war WW11.

    The declassified are going to make life a little embarressing for some I'd say. The intrigue is just starting now. I believe some of the reasons opinions are abounding and some feel locked in is because of the people who said things and never felt they would ever be called on them, reminds me of the Nixon era, and why # one principle (musashi) should be adherrred to. But is not in several groups.

  14. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Gee wiz gary, What can I say except you are totally wrong about this? In Kajukenbo we have both Judo throws and Jujutsu techniques.

    I'm not bashing Judo in the least. Gene Lebell was a Judo champion and hence his moniker. Besides, he was a pro-wrestler and they all have nick-names.
  15. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    I was referring to my post where I quoted Shawn's training "history". Perhaps if I were more sure of myself, I'd have made that clear.
  16. Nuck Chorris

    Nuck Chorris I prefer North South

    I swear you guys argue just for the sake of it.
  17. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Danjo does that is for sure, me I never argue :D
  18. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Danjo et al,
    Thought you might like to see this, or not...But here it is anyway, the Seminar in Vegas June 23/24 2007.

    My friend and instructor Pat Kelly will be there also, teaching.

  19. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    If you want to see what Kosho is about, you should attend this event. IMHO

    To continue this, I was reading the book by Bruce Haines again (Chapter #9)
    I think that is pretty much the way it is explained around the campfire I have listened to at times. It is informative and explains why the true founder of the term Kenpo is given to James Mitose, the others just did not do much.

    It was not until after the war that it was set in concrete (made aware as to who was the big dog). He Explains it was Chow who coined the phrase of "Kenpo Karate" what then went on to be EPSr's fame, Chow just went back to beachcombing.

    Notice the dates and times at this article.

    It is consistant with the book of Bruce Haines. It also explains the misinformation that has occured about Choki and Okinawan Naihanshi kata. The time frame of Japan and Okinawa, how that was important to Hawaii even as brief as it was. The why's and wherefores of the migration of the various asian cultures to the west.

    Bruce Haines explains the meaning of Shorinji and Kempo well, no mention of Sijo Emperado or what is said to have occured there by him and his followers.
    It is into the 3rd edition, so I figure if it should have been placed into that book it would have. The fact is the nod goes to the "scoundrel Mitose" even after he was convicted of crimes.

    It is a good read and all should try to read it IMHO.
  20. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Here is a good location to read a few thoughts, on the subject of Kosho...

    It looks like one you would enjoy Kempofist.

    Interesting, where John goes so goes Danjo. :p

    This is a very good post thought it should be shared, so I copied it from the location Danjo and John are now posting.

    Originally Posted by koshonokenza
    Hello all! This is my first post,and I think its fitting that we get back to the original question posted by "Leg Lock Guy" Instead of having a discussion on who can beat up the most people in a multipile attacker scenierio. Your question in regards to" Kosho Ryu having no techniques "can be answered simply. There are thousands of techniques in Kosho Ryu.There just not taught in a curriculum based format, Such as Parker Kenpo, Cerio Kenpo etc,etc..For example, In the Villari Kempo system there are numbered techniques, in Tracy and Parker Kenpo there are named techniques. In Kosho Ryu we teach basic fundamental's in Stricking,Kicking,Locking,Throwing,Evading etc.. We use drills to develope these skill sets and practice them to better understand how are bodies should move. We then practice implementing this skills through the basic understanding of proper distancing,timing and positioning. The same way a grappler would work on a kimura lock for half a class,and then the instructor would say" O.K time to roll for 10 minutes,I want you guys to work that kimura into your sparring session." When someone says Kosho Ryu doesn't have technique's,it just means we don't have prearranged defenses to particular attacks. However, to become profficient in any art, you need to practice the basic movements of a particular waza hundreds if not thousands of times in a controlled enviornment before you can perform it in real time against a committed attack. Because Kosho Ryu is taught as a conceptionally based art, especially by Bruce Juchnik Hanshi. People who have not yet developed the skills in there basics believe they can just apply the movements in Kosho Ryu because the Law of Physics states that they can! This is just not so! Kosho Ryu is a very complex art and takes intense practice to become a profficient practitioner. Timing, Positioning ,Distancing Aillignments all play a role in any Martial Art. Kosho Ryu is no different. The fact that we don't do prearranged techniques, doesn't make Kosho Ryu better or worse then any other martial art,we just approach the learning process in a different way. To quote one of My peer's in the SKSKI " Because we don't deal with an attack with a prearranged plan,our plan can't be foiled." Kempo is a study, and like anything, there are many times that you will fail on your journey to understanding its deeper meanings. I personally have been punched and kicked and thrown off balance more time's then I can count in my journey to better understand how to apply the teachings that have been passed on to me. I hope this in some way helps answer the question posted.

    Last edited: Jun 1, 2007

Share This Page