Shorei Kosho Ryu?

Discussion in 'Kenpo' started by Korpy, May 24, 2007.

  1. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    Does anyone know about this style of Kempo? It has parts called Escaping Arts (breakaways from holds?), Folding arts (grappling, joint locks?), Muscular Strikes (striking?). What is this Kempo style like? I heard that it's a very soft Kempo style that is Aikidoesque. Is that true?
  2. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member've stumbled upon the Willow the Wisp of the Kenpo world. No one seems able to give any definitive answers about what this art is like. every so-called practitioner of it seems to look totally unlike the rest. Thomas Mitose looks like Kajukenbo for instance, while Bruce Juchnik seems to look like sloppy FMA from what he's shown. Trying to pin someone down on this "art" is very very difficult, which brings out my most synical self. Good luck.
  3. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    So no one knows about it really?
  4. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    A lot of people know about it they are just inclined to be not so vocal as the above mentality and one of the reasons not to many post about it.

    Then there is myself that enjoys verbal and physcal srapes.

    Why I post around is to discuss it and let others know about it.

    The reason I have joined the net, as I mentioned in other threads is the BS that abounds, by others who are far less talented. One of the best practioners around is Bruce Juchnik. Read this for some information, then ask away.

    Now the no body contact at the higest levels mean just that, evasion, and no body contact, as in avoidance. Something that is totally lost to the basic, thug.

    The reason for a weapon is when the empty hand is bigger and stronger, it is pretty much BS about breaking the arm of a 200 pound attacker by the 140 pound average of many of the arts that claim such majestic feats.

    Many like to boast and tell how tough they are, all the blood on the floor after the workout, etc., but that is not needed in a world of the more educated it seems.

  5. shaolinmonkmark

    shaolinmonkmark Valued Member

    anyone got any video clips of this art???

    anyone got any video clips of this art???
    I am dying to see some and see how it's applications are applied.
  6. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I was telling Pat Kelly about your request. He mentioned if you want "gold" you should pay for it :p

  7. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    You can also check here for information. Gathering coming up:

  8. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    First off I thought you said you liked physical scrapes? Then you say no contact? So do you feel that the highest level of fighting involves hiding behind a keyboard? Are we all practicing Kosho by typing our stuff online? No contact there. Or maybe Mitose was simply demonstrating the highest level of Kosho by sending in his student to kill those people? If that's the case, then the mafia are Kosho experts.

    Also, here you are defending Juchnik, but on the Mitose Jr. Thread, you admit that he sucks and that's why you hang out with (notice you didn't say train under) Pat Kelly. What gives Gary?
  9. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    That is all your words and take based on your thought's, I said it quite different. Again one of the reasons for all the BS is what you are doing at present.
    But I figure those that read have to be able to understand what you are saying, is your twist and your take, and no one else's but your's.

    If you can't understand it by now Dan, I don't think there is a point to go into it for your benifit, to twist and turn it all around.

    I think you are what you mention very much so. Keyboard at work etc. But "no mas" you are mentioning, guess the schools are not going to allow it anymore...Good. Saving the taxpayer some money is nice.
    Might even be the local library for all I know?

  10. BlackCatBonz

    BlackCatBonz New Member

    Personal Attack removed, enjoy 3 days in the sin bin - Freeform
    Last edited by a moderator: May 26, 2007
  11. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Well that certainly clears things up Gary. Yeah, I can really see how me not being able to post on my breaks is saving the taxpayer money.
  12. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Shawn Baily had a post removed for a personal attack? How strange. I can't imagine someone with Shawn's integrity who video trains with Juchnik and has a black belt from some guy that couldn't read who impressed him as having learned his kenpo from a book, could have possibly said anything negative. In fact, to prove how much of a straight shooter Shawn is, why don't I post his own martial arts story from in his own words. It's a true classic story of a young man's training in the Kenpo arts:

    Shawn "Blackcatbonz" Baily wrote on November 15 2005 at 9:36 AM at SJK: "My first martial arts teacher taught me kempo. He did not know what style, or where it came from. He learned it from some japanese guy, who told nothing of himself, and only that it came from his father. He also claimed that he was a man of samurai lineage. He and 4 other guys met at this mans house 3 days a week, sometimes to just stand in a horse stance for 2 hours and then be sent home. Miss 1 class, don't bother coming back. The training was brutal, and sometimes sadistic.....but he went there with very low self esteem and he meant to leave someone else. He did. After he received his black belt, he was told not to come back.
    He trained me the same way, in the dojo, I was not allowed to ask any questions, just do what he did, and what he told me to do. There were many times when i questioned myself about what he was teaching me, and as we became closer i was able to ask him a few things. Everything he told me about his training i doubted......didnt sound believable in the least, but this guy could move....6 feet tall and 270 pounds, doing things i thought impossible. Using a sword, throwing, kicking, joint locks, and striking. It was a complete system in my eyes. There were no techniques to be learned, save for the learning of the sword part of it. Drawing, the basic cuts, Foot work, returning the blade, and a few single man and 2 man forms. Aside from this, everything was taught as a principle.
    I had books at home about Iaido and Kenjutsu, a lot of the stuff he taught me were right along with what i had read in some of them.....some of the stuff seemed a bit unorthodox compared to what i read.
    I asked him why we didnt do more "sword stuff", he said it was because you dont really get to carry around a sword with you, and that everything else we learned can be done with the sword in your difference.
    there was no separation in the application of punching, striking, kicking or locking and was to lead seemlessly to the next.
    The more I learned, the more I doubted his story of how he learned.....he must have learned all his stuff from books and videos. He knew about the tea ceremony for heaven sake.
    I actually approached him with that very question.......he said it would be great to learn it from books......his only problem lied in the fact that he couldnt read, maybe at a grade 2 level. He had a few books on kempo that he looked through.....but they were more for the students.
    In his quest to learn more about Kempo......he ran into a guy that taught Kosho-ryu and decided to take a few private lessons. At our next class, he told me about it and then said it would probably be better if i went there and studied kosho instead. I was a little bit miffed at the brush off, but i did decide to go and see what he was talking about.
    Kosho was more similar than different to what i had learned, teaching by principle with no techniques; locking, throwing, kicking and striking were done as needed; same way to bow into and out of class. But Kosho did one thing that he could not......fill in a lot of the missing pieces about the how's and why's. In the end though, it was still the same stuff.
    I kept training with my first teacher as well as with the kosho school. After many hours of bumps, bruises, blood, sweat, tears, and anguish, I was finally awarded a black belt from my first teacher.....even though the white belt i had worn from the beginning of my training was almost black with the hours of training on it.
    I continue to be a student of kosho, because to me, it represents the heart or Kokoro of kempo. It contains the essence of the seeds my first teacher planted.
    I have met and trained with many martial artists from varying styles....and i have yet to meet one that exhibits the depth of training of Kosho Ryu.
    The Kempo i study is very different than the Kenpo i see in other schools.......but this is because of the way that i was taught.
    EPAK and its sub-systems, and Tracy Kenpo seem to have everything in a tidy package with a plethora of techniques. But these are arts unto themselves, and by no means less effective.
    To truly learn Kosho means letting go of what you think you know.....even with all of the similarities that i encountered, i had to do the same thing.
    There is nothing wrong with continuing to train in something you understand and becoming the best you can be at it. I am not trying to convert, or convince someone that what i do is better. What i do try to do occasionally is express HOW or WHY I do it and compare it to HOW or WHY you do it......this way i can better understand myself and you.


    Now how can anyone not believe a story like that?
  13. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    I thought you would like that.
    Well nice seeing Shawn here, wow Danjo you must have connection's. ;)

    I observed the post before it was deleted and it was not that bad I mean an observation and a statement surly didnt warrant that. :confused:

    It is interesting how when persons get banned and can't answer back is when some bring in information and claim is is correct or not. I am not disputing that what Dan posted is/isnt what Shawn mentioned, because we all know it is what Dan has in his folder about the different people (kosho usually).

    But when I want him to show a picture showing someone dressed in what looks like a monk "summer uniform" and a huge cross around their neck it can not be found :p

    Funny really.
    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  14. Korpy

    Korpy Whatever Works

    All I wanted to know was how Kosho Shorei Ryu looked like... not a flame thread.
  15. BGile

    BGile Banned Banned

    Hi, I know what you mean. It is similar to kenpo and the basic katas.
    These are done for exercise and most of the ones that are in the system are of traditional Shorinji and Shorin Ryu. Many are put there to show respect for other systems that use them.

    The ability of the Kosho person is to cross barriers and not isolate any one group, why??? Because it was like that in the beggining. Similar to a Doctor who has to learn the whole practice or the Marine who has to go through the training to make them Marines and then they settle into the certain specialty they will be while serving.

    For example in days of old all had to learn the various weapons so they could be proficient in them, but when preferring one weapon or kata they might decide to do Akijutsu instead of Judo.

    What some seem to forget is the term "Jutsu" in the days that it was called that term, rather than say "Karate" later on, when in less than a century ago it was put into the exercise routines of the Japanese to bring the childern up in their physcial stature to be more like the peasent in strength (who had to be stronger and were because they worked hard) Sort of like doing your basics to be able to prepare for the harder work ahead...

    Here is a good website to read about the various MA's that are out and about.

    The problem today with politics and groups, when one is switching from one group to another they are inclined to be aligned with the new group and then give up on the other they learned. Similar to a child with a new toy attitude.

    But when they realize the toy they had prior (was similar/better) they go to another one to find what they can't get out of the new toy or MA...

    Personalities are at play and ones who are looking for rank are sometimes very suspect. Something Shawn mentioned. ;)

    The attempt to say what Kosho is like is to look at many various arts and combine and make very fluid, not stiff.

  16. Rabu

    Rabu Valued Member

    Rambling response follows:

    I have had the opportunity to work with many martial artists over the last twenty years of practice.

    The single most impressive individual I have met was Bruce Juchnik. It was not for this hand skills or his Kosho as most people would percieve it, it was because of a singular attitude I have found very few other places or done as well.

    The people who trained at the seminars, clinics and classes I attended taught by Juchnik were being lifted up, without knocking others down.
    People whom I would see as being confrontational worked together and shared learning instead of simply knocking each other down.

    Where in every Kempo/Kenpo school I came into contact with I received Drivel and crap for history and facts, Juchnik would freely admit that 'the history of Kempo in the United States is at the least...exciting....and full of controversy'.

    Unlike any other person I had met, Juchnik freely admitted that there needed to be study and examination of the history of Kempo in the United States and that many of the facts being presented were simply made up, for lack of any real substance.

    I met people performing many arts, from many places who worked together and grew to respect each other for their differences and to look for their similiarities.

    As for how it looks when utilized? *scratch*

    Juchnik did study with Angel Cabales, learning Espada y Daga, so I would imagine that did have a deep impact upon his hand work and positioning. I wouldnt see that as a bad thing.

    The training I remember included the idea that your Uke (the guy attacking you for your practice of techinique) was not simply to throw a single arm out and stand there. Secondary and continuing attacks were the standard. In order to pull the technique out of form, learn the principle and to apply it, there needed to be a practice by which you could apply what you learned.

    In the school where I trained, we used free form sparring in order to work to apply the techniques and to learn to understand what was happening in the forms. This was a departure from every Kempo school I had come into contact with. It wasnt that they didnt perform this kind of work, just that I didnt see it.

    What I do know, is that after practicing Kosho Ryu for several years and working with my Kempo instructor on form and function, I was able to walk into a traditional Kyokushin school and was asked to teach forms and run a club at the local university. This was because of the work I had performed, but also the quality of the instruction I was given.

    I attended classes at a local Aikido school, where the head instructor chose to use my skill at Uke in exclusion to others on the first day I attended class. His students wanted to know how long it took for me to learn Aikido. I had never studied Aikido. What they were seeing was my understanding of the 'folding' aspects of the Kempo I studied.

    I never studied Karate, but was recognized as having a good level skill in it, sufficient to teach.

    I never studied Aikido, but was recognized as having a high enough level skill to be the chosen work partner of a teacher I never worked with before. I was complimented on my 'Aiki' skills by him, his students and his assistant instructors.

    What BGile is saying is that there are supposed to be the idea of levels of mastery in regards to how your art is applied. From clashing at the lower levels to being able to avoid contact with an opponent at the higher levels. It isnt a matter of lack of skill and that 'being behind a keyboard' allows you to practice Kempo, its a matter of the idea that you have enough understanding of yourself and your art that you can control the level of contact with your opponent.

    I remember being quite bitter when I left my first Kempo school, and understand being angry at Kempo in general. American Kempo/Kenpo (being the same thing...sheesh) is full of crappy emotionally bruised styles and people.

    Rather than asking for what it looks like, try to find a school offering classes and go see. Set realistic goals for yourself in your training and review your progress with a rigorous gaze. If you arent obtianing the skill you want, work to change your training.

    Danjo is working in that fashion and seems fairly satisfied with his training. So is Bgile. They both have their eyes open to their training and review it for whether they are satisfied with progress toward a goal they each have set for themselves.

    For me: I became unhappy with my training and its components and found places to obtain the training I felt I should have gotted initially.

    I studied Kempo. (Parker/Tracy/villari/Juchnik)
    I studied Karate. (Kyokushin)
    I am a student in (Bak Sil Lum - Northern Shaolin Kung Fu - Kuoshu).

    Each time I worked to study the culture and philosophy being presented and reviewed whether I was obtaining the skills and experience I wanted based on my own amorphous goals.

    Best of luck and remember that opinions are know.

    Rob Baverstock
    Madison Wisconsin
  17. Pacificshore

    Pacificshore Hit n RUN!

    Rob as much as your post makes a whole lot of sense, it is unfortunate that it will fall upon deaf ears for this has become a place for the most part of flaming rather than sharing. Good luck in your training :)
  18. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Judo didn't exist in the days of old. It was made up by Jigoro Kano as a sport and spiritual discipline.

    You're confused again here. it wasn't "karate' or "jutsu" it was karate-jutsu and later karate-do. "Jutsu" means "art" whereas "do" means "way"
  19. DAnjo

    DAnjo Valued Member

    Where did you train exactly? Who was your Kosho instructor etc.? How long did you train there and why did you leave it to do Kung Fu?

    So you knew the Kyokushinkai forms from your Kosho training and were asked to teach them? Or are you saying that the Kyokushin guys were so impressed with your skill that they left off of their own art and turned the club over to you so that you could teach them your obviously superior stuff?

    What I find interesting here is that in my experience, you just mentioned two of the proudest and some would say most arrogant groups of martial artists that are out there. Aikido guys as well as Kyokushin guys both think that their art rules. It's interesting that you, having never studied either, were afforded such a high level of deference upon first coming in the door and in the case of Kyokushin asked to teach. Wow.

    Again, this is the typical response. Why not put up some video and show us what the art looks like? Does it look like Kyokushin and aikido? I mean this is worse than "looked for, they cannot be seen" about Shaolin Priests on the old TV show.

    How long did you study each version of Ken/mpo? Parkers=? Tracy=? Villari=? Juchnik=? How long did you teach Kyokushin? Why did you switch away from it to kung fu?

    Thanks for answering all of these questions in advance,

    Last edited: May 26, 2007
  20. John Bishop

    John Bishop Valued Member

    I'm still of the opinion that if you want to see and experience what Kosho Ryu Kenpo (Kenpo Jiu jutsu) is, you need to go to Hawaii and train with those who actually learned the techniques that were taught by James Mitose. There are still people practicing and teaching there who have not crossed over from other styles, or redesigned their kenpo.
    Here on the mainland you have people heading Kosho organizations that may be excellent martial artists, but have very little actual hands on training in Kosho Ryu with Mitose. Instead they have casual prison visits and discussions on theory, and in turn apply that to their knowledge of other styles of kenpo. Then you have a gentleman in the east who claims to have learned all the secrets and techniques, even though he only trained with Mitose for 6 weeks.
    There are at least two very experienced Kosho Ryu instructors who have not crossed over from other systems. James Mitose's original "Self Defense Club" is still in existance, and headed by Professsor Charles Lee. Lee was trained by Simeon Eli, who inherited the club from Thomas Young, who inherited the club from Mitose.
    There is also Professor James Muro. Muro was taught Kosho Ryu by Professor John Chow-Hoon. Chow-Hoon was the younger brother of William Chow, and was trained in Kosho Ryu by Mitose and his brother William. Chow-Hoon also held high rank in Danzan Ryu jujutsu.

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