Hi Jawara, No offence taken my friend! I totally understand where you are coming from, and can empathise with why you would say that, but I just wanted to present the other side also. It seems i was rather flipant with my dry reply, so my apologies for that. The silat community is already a big mess, and we certainly don't need more aggro on the web! Looking forward to your contributions here, and good to make your aquaintance.
Haji Mangipin Warm salaams to all, And to Jawara, to answer your question, Haji Mangipin (real name Haji Ariffin) is a young (in his 40s) pesilat from Cimande who is currently travelling up and down Britain, teaching silat and healing people. Sometimes he drops by my place in London where he spends a few days a week. He is 'old school' Cimande and does everything with spreading Islam in his mind. He now has an assistant, an old-timer silat man from London called Abdurrahman, who holds the (twice a week, I think) silat class in the Naqshbandi mosque in Seven Sisters. One thing Haji Mangipin gets real wound up about is a Californian Cimande's Pendekar's ceritificate at http://www.cimande.com/writings/papers/cimande_more.htm where he feels there has been blasphemy done to his religion, because of the misquoting of the Islamic salaam beside the Arabic calligraphy. The salaam is one of the most basic sentences in traditional Islam and the fact that it is misquoted in this important document is to Haji Mangipin a red flag to a bull. But the salaam is not the only missrepresentation on this certificate. Going through the above-mentioned website there were more and more things that got the young Haji upset. However to be fair I must say that the videos of the Pendekar did make the Haji laugh. Warm salaams to all, Bram.
Hey Tristan, Hey Wali, wassss up I think it was slightly (most probably unintentionaly), but different strokes for different folks, as they say! I agree bro! I don't see how a nationality in anything, will make a person better at any particular activity. The English invented football, yet they have to win anything significant since 1966 (and boy DO THEY LIKE TO REMIND US!!! ), etc... That's true indeed. Just like Basketball, when USA team got beat in the Olympic, its hurts indeed! :love: I see it the way I have seen you describe it in other posts, it is the individual, rather than the style, and in this case, the nationality. I second that bro! Opps I can't second my opinion? In that case I'm agree with you. During several trips to Indonesia, I have seen a change whereby the Indonesians are turning their back on traditional silat, and want to be more western. Likewise, people in the West, wanna be more like the people in the East, etc,etc... Again I agree, hotdamn! I've became a yes man here I think the problem began when the Westerner show much interest in silat, and with agood intention come to Indonesia. Some of them for some reason and another was mislead by the sponsor or themselves promote something that is not there. Yes both side can take the blamed for this. This is why Oriental musicians like Vanessa Mae lead the way in Violin music, putting most of the European counterparts to shame. If you happen to be in Berkley, John Hopkin, Harvard..most of the science students are Oriental...It must be the noodles they ate That was my point. If we are talking sheer numbers, then yes, as there are millions of Indonesians doing the art, but in terms of skill level, it is really down to the individual. My 2 cents! Got you bro, I agree with all the above.... Have you ever heard of Dr. Phil Davies? He is one of the respectable silat player in London. Got to go...I'm going to the Blues Festival....Heeep Horray! Peace and Be Well, Tristan
Salaams to Wali, Jawara, Pak Kiai, Mas Tristan, Wali, I certainly understand your statement but I don't think the silat community is really such a big mess in perspective. There are many groups who quietly go about their business and have no desire to fuss with other groups (like Mas Tristan, for example) and there are other groups who seem to be based on respect and tradition and are active in spreading their teachings without much self aggrandizing fanfare (like East West Studios and other perguruan on this board, for example). Its just that the BETTER, DEADLIER, SUPERIOR psuedo silat crowd to happens to be a very vocal minority who gets all the press and its a poor reflection on all of us. Let them rant let them rave. I'd rather make friends! Salaam, Silkroad
Well said! I know that historically, the "beef" has been between 2 specific schools, and I have always stayed out of their discussions, and always will, as I am neither in a position or pre-disposition to do so. The fact that "silat" in itself is such a complex and deep "thing" (religious elemenets, cultural elements, the many hundreds of systems, the spiritual elements, etc...) only adds to the levels and layers on which we can debate, argue or agree. Ultimately, as long as we all respect each other, be tolerant to the views we each hold, and not try and take a stake or hold over something that God has given to ALL, it is ok to debate and discuss. Peace.
Salaams Mas Tristan, [******************** With all do respect, YOU are the one who preach of doing silat taugh you a good deeds, be a good human being, avoid ego and pride, etc. etc. But when someone disagree with you, you are start hiding and preach religion. No hiding here my friend - I stand by my statement that the body and the soul are joined until death and that until that day any physical action has an accompanying spiritual reality - if you would like to prove me wrong and demonstrate that silat is only physical then invite me to your funeral and we see how much silat your body does then ¿ Cut the bullcrapt! As I had said: I have never mention about silat lincah, I had said all silat system that doing this kind of stunt need to reexamine their goal and motives. However, if the shoes fit ,wear it man! No - you did mention silat lincah , its just that you didnt know anything about them and began to critisize what you do not understand. You are upset because I don't agree with your opinion and accusing me of cannot believe the video that you had shown me. YES, I do not believe it. Do you believe the Chinas movie is a real? Im not upset about you not believing what you saw , I am upset about your lack of respect for your brothers in silat. First of all, I'm older than you , I have more experience is martial arts, and life experiences in general. It is a custom in Maly and Indonesia to respect the opinon of the elder. Where is your? Firstly I always address you as Mas , this is a sign of respect. Secondly I always attempt to convey my points in a neutral and objective way, avoiding emotive expressions such as crap, ******** , f. you etc ,which can annoy many people and are more condusive to arguing than discussing. Thirdly I have avoided responding to the personal insults that you have put in your posts, and have never questioned your authority to discourse on silat or religion. All in all these for me are signs of respect, so you cannot fault me on my adab. If however you take respect to mean agreeing with you when I dont, saying Yes , very well said Mas , to statements that I find ignorant , prejudiced and ridiculous , then no, you will not find that in my posts - that is not respect , it is ass kissing and we do not do it. I'm going to end this topic, talk is cheaps. Until you can show me the REAL things about you, your teacher and the rest of you so called pendekars. I can't wait. If you happen to be in my neighbohood, I would love to see you doing your things I never call myself or my master Pendekar , it is not our way to give ourselves grand titles or honours. You have no knowledge about me or my master but have jumped to some pretty major conclusions - it doesnt matter - we are not trying to be anyone or anything - Finally, I'm agree to disagree with you Sulaiman, take it or leave it. Foxtrot Yankee! Foxtrot yankee - forgive you ? I do indeed my brother May Allah increase us in knowledge and understanding, bless you and forgive me Adios Amigos
Bram, It's always hard to stay out of symantics while in a discussion but isn't alchemy for the general population very closely related to many of the mystics and supernatural. In all the stories I've read and heard about them, besides their islamic teachings and meaning for present Indonesia, their mysticism and supernatural powers are described. Pekir
Pekir, maye some wali are famous for their mystical skills nota all. But some were in the business of gold production, namely Sunan Bon Ang then Kalijaga learned the knowledge. Warm salams to all, Bram
Bram, That might be very true, besides reading about the phenomena of the Wali Songo in general I more or less concentrated on Sunan Gunungjati/Ceribon. So I shouldn't and won't claim specialized knowledge on each of them. Pekir
Kembali Salam hormat Bram, I think Dr. Phil currently in Canada visiting his teacher. He have been very busy travelling lately and finishing his manuscript for his book, probably it will take a while before he responding to you. And for Dik Sulaiman, I was hoping that we close the topic by saying agree to disagree. But yet you are keep coming back with a pot shots. I do not know how it is in Malaysia. But in the West, when you are presenting something/thesis. it is your responsiblity to depend your thesis with facts and with reference of books/films/video/magazine in which your thesise have been introduced or promoted. Otherwise your crenditial and credibility are in questions. You can't tell your audience by saying :"trust me on this" There always be a Pro and Contra of your thesis. And it is not being disrespectfull by asking the presenter of the facts. :bang: As I had said several times, I have never single out Silat Lincah, and you are accusing me of discussing silat lincah..Well my friend, show me the fact! Not agreeing with your stories about you, Guru Omar, and your guru are not being disrespectful. Just in my opinon are not believable, no punt intended :bang: When I see it then I believe it, I meant that literally and figuratively speaking Have you ever see the show called "Criss Angel" Mind Freaks show? If you think Guru Omar video showing his students jumping from 3 stories building was incredible, I'm wondering what you are going to say about Criss Angel? God? Mind is terrible thing to waste my friend Peace and Be Well, Tristan
Dr. Phil Salam hormat, Mas Tristan, Wah, I must be lucky, just got an email from Dr Phil who says he will be here for a Sunday in Camden sometime later this month! Thank you very much again for the contact and suggestion. Salam hormat, Sulaiman - Cekgu Ariffin was with us last two Sundays in a row! We want to do a barbeque when you come to celebrate silat and eat sate! It would be great if it coincides with the time Dr Phil will be in Camden. Warm salaams to all, Bram
Peace to all of you hi. I am only a video dukun hehe so don't ask me about magic trick or sorcery... I want to comment about the video. 1 Malacca lost to Portugal in 1511 in a war. Malaysia got its independence 49 years ago through negotiation. Nuff said. 2 Mahaguru (grandmaster) Omar Din's son now is the secretary of Persaka. 3 I study silat (mainly Silat Seni Gayong) because I want to have extra activity but I love the philosophy, friends and my gurus. I hate the bickering among my gurus and the politics involve though... Another video from Lincah is [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mtd_PCjao"]Silat Lincah - YouTube[/ame] They won in martial arts demonstration competition in South Korea.
Rahayu Tok Dukun, Nice demonstration I was in Malaysia in 1983 for a while. I stayed in Penang & Butterworth mostly and enjoyed it very much. Salam Krisno
Tok Dukun said: Another video from Lincah is [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5mtd_PCjao"]Silat Lincah - YouTube[/ame] They won in martial arts demonstration competition in South Korea. ****************** Salam Dukun, I knew you meant well. However, as martial arts competitors and judge. I would like to know. What competition they won with this demo? First of all, they were many types of tournament. Don't get up to tight with the names: People can call their tournament World Martial Arts Tournaments. And maybe only 5 schools attended or 5 of his students from differents countries. Since the tournament is not regulated. We have so many world champion outthere. So name of the country can be deceiving too. Secondly, what division they competed? In this division they will be class or rank requeirement and age on each class. For examples: In Kata or forum there will be black belt or equavalent, Brown belt, Green and white belt division. Some of the would divided by ages, by kata origins: traditional kata, and musical kata. In freefighting (Kumite) not only they divided in their ranks and age. Usually in the higher division ie: Black belt division also divided by their weights. Heavy, middle, and light weight. The Grand champion of the free fighting is the winner of round robin between the champion of heavy weight, middleweight and light weight. In Self-defense, is usually only one divison. Weapons is usually have two divisions, Black and Brown belt divisions. Sometimes in the division, very often lately. not enough competitors. Two or three competitors. This competitors automatically becomes first place, second and third places champion...is that fair? Not at all, but thats the fact jack! This competitor eventually will singing and dancing and prounounced their winning.. But again it was then, I'm no longer a judge or avid competitor, I'm old, grumpier with age, and can't handle politic that well. No disrespect intended, just want to knows the fact. Remember, half truth is half lie Tristan
hi You know I don't know the answers. I just read from newspaper and magazine that they won. The runner-up is capoeria (Don't ask me if this team is official Brazil's team or just a small club because I don't know either).That's all. Hey actually they should won because they are using PERSAKA's fund.... Is it true PERSILAT don't allow traditional music silat anymore in most silat arts competition. Many old silat gurus complain about this...
hi I like to say sorry if I offended anybody. I read yesterday's newspaper that Silat Lincah asked for Malaysian Government because they want to send 20,000 of their pesilat to Lebanon to help out. I don't think the goverment will let them go unless it is for helping giving food and first aid. They should join Aman Malaysia or Red Crescent for that..
Sulaiman, I guess you are right when you say that a big part of the western society is undergoing secularisation. In my country it started around the sixties of the previous century. In the Netherlands secularisation has lead to the demish of the roman catholic churches e.g. This effects a lot of things in our daily life. It didn't only change our religious expercience but also our morals and tolerance. Not in every case for the best but that's my personal view. But is it automatically bad for an individuals perspective on spirituality, sincerity, respect and moral? I don't think so. I consider myself for example spiritual but not in a pure Roman catholic sense that I grew up with. I rather try to be a good human being, by respecting and caring for my fellow men. In relation to silat and religion I think that one should ask the question if the islamic belief is really the original religion connected to silat anyways. Silat is as far as I know older than the Islamic faith in present Indonesia. So four to five hundred years ago there was a gradual turn around from the mainly Hindu believe to the Islamic believe in society and silat. I guess I want to say that major changes have happened before and will probably keep happening in the future. Isn't it more important that teachers/guru not only teach the physical, tenaga dalam etc. but also emphasize good morals, sincerity and respect which are not neccesarily connected to a certain religion. I do believe though that the globalization of silat has besides positive aspects a lot negative effects but these are not connected to religion but to popularisation, commercialisation and lack of historic sense. This 'mass consumption' of the art has changed (some) of the western and Malay/Indonesian arts and teachers alike. I think making big money and becoming as big an organisation as possible is a bigger problem for the art than religion will ever be. Pekir
