The link doesn't work, but if it's the guys who throw themselves off high buildings, then I wouldn't call this "Training". You'll find that in time, these people will feel the effects of their "feats" in their body, and become cripples. Nothing to do with silat.
I just laughed out loud when I saw that guy drop from the building and his legs buckle as he hit the floor.
Testing not training hi all, Thanks for posting the link for this clip - I had heard of the existence of this film but had not had the opportunity to see it . The video is of the well known ( at least outside of this forum ) Malaysian silat Lincah , and the Guru is Guru Omar Din , very famous for precisely these sort of feats. The title of the link is misleading though -these are not training methods , at least not in the sense that they are part of the standard syllabus. They are TESTS , and as such are meant to be above and beyond the normal , rational sphere - they are to 1) test the trust and obedience the murid has in his guru 2) to test the fruits of the murids tenaga dalam training. Gayong has some very similar methods - eg the mandi minyak ( boiling oil bath ) Machette chopping, jumping through glass etc. Other interesting Gayong feats include breaking huge rocks on peoples heads, running them over with cars ( and in 1 case a train ) etc. The purpose is to weed out those who are not fit to proceed with the higher level of Batin training once the tenaga dalam is completed. For the batin training the student must have 100 % absolute confidence and trust of his master , and the master must have 100 % confidence and trust in his murid. To many it seems shocking or extreme , but Malay silat functions in these realms - its training is designed to push us beyond our limited mental picture of what and who we are and to rewaken our full potential as human beings - as Gods deputies on Earth. The jumping off buildings is irrelevant , a side show designed for our illusory senses , the obedience is what is important. That and respect, something I am surprised to see lacking in the posts that commented on this film. It may not be Your silat, but do not say it is not silat - As for the Guru Omar din , he walked with a cane because as a child he develped polio, something that makes his development and expansion of Silat lincah even more incredible. Respect and peace to all our Silat brothers and sisters sulaiman
Salam, I agree to disagree Sulaiman It is true is not my silat but I can't digest what I've seen is a silat. What is silat anyway? Jumping form three story building is silat? My jump instructor is not study silat but he can do the PLF (parachute landing fall) smoothly. And this so called silat student have a very poor landing. I was wondering how many of them have inflected self injury. As far as Guru Omar din. Be that as may, does he ever did the jump? I'm a firm believer that if you can't do it yourself, do not ask students or others to do it. Live by example say to speak. Its about credibility. If a jump instructor in airborne school never jump from the airplane or does not have a jump wing...are you willing to follow his instruction? If an AIT (advance Infantry training) instructor does not have the CIB (combat infantry badge), what kind credibility he has? So in general schemes of things, if some one try to tell you how to fight with a knife and he personally never have been in fight that involve knife or life and death situation. His teaching may be makes sense, the facts his technique is not proven in fights or battles, it makes a doubt to some people who have seen the elephant. As usual, I can be wrong too! No hard feeling bro, Tristan
Aren't people so varied in this world? Never a dull moment! I initially resisted reacting to this thread because it has been my experience that generally, practices that fall outside a persons sphere of experience (especially cultural practice) is portrayed in a derogatory manner. This is true in ALL cultures ... the Javanese too are famous for their exclusion of things not Javanese ... it happened sometimes in my own family. Once we understand the context (thank-you Mas Suleiman) it is easier to observe impartially and to accept without prejudice that peoples around the world (in fact all of us one from another) have different adat ... different ways. That does not make the ways better or worse ... just different, and we can as individuals choose to incorporate or reject ... without prejudice. From a personal perspective now, I would not follow a person who required of me a blind acceptance and obedience, and nor would I expect it of others - but that is just my way . Also concur Mas Tristan ... have to at least have direct experience to teach something. Salam
As far as Guru Omar din. Be that as may, does he ever did the jump? I'm a firm believer that if you can't do it yourself, do not ask students or others to do it. Live by example say to speak. Salaams Mas tristan, No hard feelings taken - we are all here because we love to discuss are we not ! regarding Guru omar din , yes he has jumped , and from higher , I heard from 5 or 6 storey building, also he was buried alive for 4 days , set on fire etc - why ? well one reason is to show that body is a body and we do not know what it or its limits are. another is to show that knives do not cut and fire does not burn except by permission of their lord - everything is in obedience , just to greater or lesser degree of consciousness. it is to build faith and confidence, not to become a big or famous or rich one Also salaams to Mas kembang alas, I too would not follow a guide who demanded blind obediance. I am obedient to my teacher because I love him , trust him, and 100 per cent accept that on the path of silat and many other things he knows infinitely more than me, and that the best way to learn from him is to not resist or put in my own opinions , but to follow him and do what he says - without hesitation. That is the only way he will be able to mould me , and in this way we need to be moulded by someone as it is impossible to mould yourself. I have a lot to learn , and I honestly dont know if i will ever really get into Bob dylan, but I am trying my best to follow my master. Still I have to agree those landings were absolutely awfull, sent a shiver through my spine salaam silat
Salaam silat everyone, I don't think that teachers actually demand blind obediance. However when I was with my teacher he would ask me not to ask too many questions and just get on with the moves! In Cikalong style I understand that you are taught no application until late too. The thing is in silat alot is body-knowledge / muscle memory and all the intellectualizing you can do can't help. Obediance is required but not blind. I think this is the tradition of teacher-student relationships in Indonesia for the student to obey and the teacher to patronise. Think about Bima and Dorna in the Jawa wayang story Dewa Ruci. Intending to kill Bima, Dorna sends him to find the elixir of life. By obeying this Bima finds his Greater Self. So obediance is important in learning silat. Also if you want to get to the stage of Gerak Nurani, you must be able to obey your inner Self too. Warm salaams to all, Bram.
Sulaiman said: regarding Guru omar din , yes he has jumped , and from higher , I heard from 5 or 6 storey building, also he was buried alive for 4 days , set on fire etc - why ? ****************** With all do respect Sulaiman, I would believe the stories when I see it. Too many stories like this floating around. None can be justified. Any video/picture? News paper print telling this historic event?This is a great stuff! If only true...My Uncle probably smiling to hear this I believe a pig can fly before I believe Guru Oman stories. No one can survive being burried alive without oxcygen for four days....NO ONE! Sorry, IMHO this is a BS stories, with all do respect my friend. Tristan
Science doesn't have all the answers I probably er on the side of the sceptics, however there is I think (!) documented evidence of Indian Yogi's going into a self induced state of suspended animation who have survived for many days buried etc. I think that the body (and the spirit!) is capable of a lot more than 'modern science' credits it of being capable of. The role of science is to try to provide an explanation ... sometimes it can't, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the thing that it can't explain is deficient ... it could mean that the science is deficient. I believe that my stance is called being a devil's advocate ? Salam
Salam Mas Krisno, I agree with you, sciece don't have all the answer, but many found the logic behind the stunt that many people claimed that they have possesed the Godly power Not a long time ago, I watched a program in Discovery Channel (see what happen when you are over 50?) It was a program research conducted by a Professor of India University. To make a long story short, they discover that the Yogi that claimed that he can elevated themself above ground, exposed! the Yogi have stick under him, still it takes a skills to balance the body, though, but not flying say to speak Another one is how the yogi person put the sharp hook with chains thrusted deep behind his back and he pulled a car with that...Exposed! He found a student volunteer that able to do that without any prior training. It was about where you thrusted the hook, still you need a knowledge of human body to do that. I was impressed with a yogi who travelled a long distance by rolling on the ground...Just don't understand why anybody want to do that Some silat people demo ilmu kebal, one of the master swung the sword to his student who are laying on the table, at the last second he twisted the sword, therefore the flat side of the sword hitting the student..He did that very fast, thank God for the modern Video, you slow it down to see what he is doing.... I'm still believe it when I see it happen in front of my eyes Other than that, is hear say... "Ripley believe it or not" usually documented any extraordinary event. World record of any of this should be on the "Guines book of world record" If not, why not? They advertised it why don't have some one with the authority to verified their claim? Jusst my opinion, of course Tristan
Fair enough. Science is, by definition, imperfect and always changing. Dogma is fixed. When a new fact comes along scientific theory changes to accomodate it and is grateful for the opportunity. Dogma denies it, blames the messenger, or folds up and dies. A scientist would look at people who jump out of buildings and don't get hurt or who can't be cut by knives and would say "How often and under what conditions does this work? If we use someone else's (not his) knife and stab him when he's not ready will he still be invulnerable?" Richard Feynman(ztl) said that science is a way of keeping us honest, especially with ourselves. To be an honest investigator requires extreme skepticism, constant vigilance against self deception, a willingness to abandon one's pet theory in the face of contrary evidence and rejection of any claims based on the authority of the speaker. "My teacher said" or "It's been documented somewhere" or "The Wisdom of the Ages and the Sacred Scriptures tell us" cut as much ice as a soap hacksaw. In other words, the more outlandish the claims the more you're going to have to show me and under more controlled conditions. Several million dollars await the first to demonstrate the extraordinary to James Randi and an independent board of examiners.
Tellner said: Richard Feynman(ztl) said that science is a way of keeping us honest, especially with ourselves. To be an honest investigator requires extreme skepticism, constant vigilance against self deception, a willingness to abandon one's pet theory in the face of contrary evidence and rejection of any claims based on the authority of the speaker. Very well put. I think in silat circles this would fall under the category of the rationalist progressives paradigm? I contend though, that my original observation about understanding the limits of the body fits in this paradigm too, maybe with a slight modification to my original statement. I agree that science is happy to investigate and open to accepting new realities. I like the bit about dogma too. Salam Mas Tristan, Yes, there are so many huksters ... and I'm always suspicious when something sounds to good to be true ... it's usually correct, it is to good to be true! The miracle is already in front of us ... there is nothing ordinary about ordinary life! Salam Krisno
****************** With all do respect Sulaiman, I would believe the stories when I see it. Too many stories like this floating around. None can be justified. Any video/picture? News paper print telling this historic event?This is a great stuff! If only true...My Uncle probably smiling to hear this I believe a pig can fly before I believe Guru Oman stories. No one can survive being burried alive without oxcygen for four days....NO ONE! Sorry, IMHO this is a BS stories, with all do respect my friend. Tristan[/QUOTE] salaams Mas Tristan, Guru Omar Dins feats have indeed been recorded and documented . There is a well known ( in Malaysia ) documentary about him and many witnesses to his feats - I will ask Pak Azlan Gani of Seni Bela Diri magzine for the title and codes etc as he is much more knowledgeable than I regarding such things - BUT even if you see the video , hear witness reports etc, will that alter your opinion ? To be honest I dont think so. You have seen the video of the mans students jumping from 2 & 3 storey building , but you do not believe that the master can do it.? did you not see the admiration and respect that the students had for him as they salaam him and kiss his hand - do you think they are all suckers ? Silat Lincah is the second largest silat in Malaysia - has he fooled everybody ? It is a characteristic of human ego to be skeptical , that is not a problem , only problem is when one says " show me and I believe " so you show them and they say " No , its a trick , I still dont believe " This is not being skeptical, it is just being stuck in your opinion no matter what the evidence to the contrary. If its true , then Why is Guru Omar Din not famous throughout the world for his extraordinary feats, I hear some peole ask. Well , the answer is that in Silat Melayu , we are not trying to use our silat for worldly power or fame. We are not interested in having our pictures plastered all over the internet or magazines or videos - we are only interested in ... doing silat. why show anything at all then I hear you ask ? well , only to educate and inspire. To show people there is more going on than is encompassed by modern sensibilities of rationalistic materialism , and much more going on in Silat Melayu than punching and kicking ¿ I will mail you when I get more info adios amigo
Guru Omar Dins feats have indeed been recorded and documented . There is a well known ( in Malaysia ) documentary about him and many witnesses to his feats - I will ask Pak Azlan Gani of Seni Bela Diri magzine for the title and codes etc as he is much more knowledgeable than I regarding such things - BUT even if you see the video , hear witness reports etc, will that alter your opinion ? Salam Sulaiman, I would like to see the documentation first, is that a facts or hear say. Is some one from the neutral camp over see the demo? I would believe it if the honest/knowledgable person would verify it and swear by it To be honest I dont think so. Are we a little sore here my friend? You have seen the video of the mans students jumping from 2 & 3 storey building , but you do not believe that the master can do it.? My opinion it does not matter, you have said that Guru Oman had jumped from 6 strories buiilding, I would love you back up your statement with facts did you not see the admiration and respect that the students had for him as they salaam him and kiss his hand - do you think they are all suckers ? Silat Lincah is the second largest silat in Malaysia - has he fooled everybody ? Kissing hand is another way to show respect to the elders, not necesarily silat players. Respect is earned and not demanded. If you part of the person who believe that jumping from 3 stories buliding is an honor and obedience/submission to him because he asked you to do that, then that's is your problem. My teacher would not asked his students to do something that defy the normal relationship between teacher and students. It is a characteristic of human ego to be skeptical , that is not a problem , only problem is when one says " show me and I believe " so you show them and they say " No , its a trick , I still dont believe " Hey Dude! I grew up in Indonesia, I heard all those things when I grew up, only few of them is valid the rest of it snake oil at best With all do respect Sulaiman, you can defend Guru Oman as much as you want to, the fact is this..could you tell us his bio ? Should be no problem right? He is a famous person...Fact will speaks themselve. This is not being skeptical, it is just being stuck in your opinion no matter what the evidence to the contrary. I respect your opinion and you should try to respect others. Being defensive is like you hide something from the truth. The truth my friend, shall set you free. If its true , then Why is Guru Omar Din not famous throughout the world for his extraordinary feats, I hear some peole ask. Well , the answer is that in Silat Melayu , we are not trying to use our silat for worldly power or fame. We are not interested in having our pictures plastered all over the internet or magazines or videos - we are only interested in ... doing silat. Cut the BS, You are being Hyprocrate here. What do you think his objective to do this demo? Advertisement of his class, improve his standing and more students, more respect and more money? But yet he claimed or you claiming that he don't want to be famous. How about one million dollars for him if he can show that he had a Godly power? I have known many guru silat in Indonesia, none of them appear in the magazine or video. Let alone doing the demo. I have never seen my teacher, his teacher's teacher did ever do the demo in public. Advertising his silat? You must be joking why show anything at all then I hear you ask ? well , only to educate and inspire. To show people there is more going on than is encompassed by modern sensibilities of rationalistic materialism , and much more going on in Silat Melayu than punching and kicking ¿ Silat is a gerak badan, don't make a big deal of if. Either you have it or you don't. Educating people by jumping from the building? You must be kidding... I've seen a stunt man/women did the landing better than them I will mail you when I get more info adios amigo Please do that, I like to read his bios, I have alot of friends who lived in Malaysia and they were a good pesilat. I'm going to ask them about this too. Adios Gringo Tristan
[ I respect your opinion and you should try to respect others. Being defensive is like you hide something from the truth. The truth my friend, shall set you free. Salaams Mas Tristan, yes i agree with you here - respect is the key issue here and what I am defending is respect for other silat Guru Guru and their aliran. Something that was lacking from everyones posts regarding this issue Guru Omar din is not my Guru and I do not have a personal axe to grind - only that when I took my oath with my master I vowed to respect all other silat players and not to make fun , or act superior to them , or to give myself the right to judge whether or not they are " real Silat " . Silat lincah is respected in malaysia and it is our custom to give respect to those who have respect in their countries and amongst their peers. i am sure your Malay friends can give you the nitty gritty on Silat lincah - for me I will ask their European representative to post something about them - it is a very interesting story. salaam silat sulaiman
I do acknowledge that there are tenagadalma skills being used here and you would need it if you’re stupid enough to hurl yourself off the top of a building. We must acknowledge that people are being injured whilst doing these practices, the teacher himself uses a walking stick so what’s the point and was it worth it? Personally I would like to see him do the opposite, jump high off the ground to an abnormal height and then he has my full respect
Please Slagg-Off Malays but Never Californians? Warm Salaams to all, Brother Sulaiman has informed us who Guru Omar Din is and why he has a walking stick. His silat school is a respected silat school and he is a respected member of the Silat community in Malaysia. Narrue, I believe that none of the students doing jumps injured themselves. How can I acknowledge that people get injured whislt doing these practices when they don't - even if they land wrong according to our military expert Mas Tristan. Sarge, I wonder why the moderators let this slagging off of a respected Malaysian silat master go on, but delete posts that mention a Californian Pendekar who makes far-out claims about magick his roots to be an ancient palace style Cimande. Only God knows? Warm salaams to all Bram
