Shinobi Soldiers

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by Sandstorm, Mar 15, 2010.

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  1. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Arthur Askey said some stuff that was generally tl;dr

    Seriously, are you planning to contribute anything to this thread or is your plan to simply try to create a bunch of swirly nothing that will obscure the actual questions? See, we've all been here from the start, you've just come along. We know what the thread is about, you don't. You can read through it to catch some idea but ultimately you will miss the context of many of the posts.

    I shall now ignore you until you decide to actually address the outstanding issues related to the actual topic of discussion. Feel free to start a new thread to discuss any other issues you might have :cool:
     
  2. Arteanor

    Arteanor Valued Member

    "
    Seriously, are you planning to contribute anything to this thread or is your plan to simply try to create a bunch of swirly nothing that will obscure the actual questions"
    i HAVE contributed, i have cleared up the usage of multiple pieces of fallacious logic (which by definition obscure the truth).

    "See, we've all been here from the start," then you shouldnt need reminding of what the topic actually IS. seems i need to repeat myself --- "but just because you followed a topic switch half way through the thread doesn't mean i will...."




    "I shall now ignore you until you decide to actually address the outstanding issues related to the actual topic of discussion."

    and who is dodging questions now?

    funny that since the TOPIC : "top·ic (tpk) n.
    1. The subject of a speech, essay, thesis, or discourse.
    2. A subject of discussion or conversation.
    3. A subdivision of a theme, thesis, or outline. See Synonyms at subject.
    4. Linguistics A word or phrase in a sentence, usually providing information from previous discourse or shared knowledge, that the rest of the sentence elaborates or comments on. Also called theme."

    of a discussion would most assuredly be set by the person who began the discussion, and since to the letter, that beginning makes no mention of the actual person you seem to want the topic to be about investigating, and that it makes no call for any such investigation, it is clearly visible that you are attempting to divert the topic.


    isn't it funny that YOU cry about unanswered questions, but don't answer any yourself?

    and, as you said earlier, i am under no obligation to defend someone else's claims, i will however defend research, especially when it is being ignored so that you can attack the researchER...

    if you take issue with what he says, why not prove him wrong? why do you spend 49 pages of forum stroking eachother off to how you all find this guy's (educated) opinion damaging to your feelings??

    IF you COULD disprove the things he claims, you WOULD, because who would let someone speak lies (especially when they are disliked?) nobody.

    so, as the topic is the series ( as extrapolated from the first post) i do not understand why the moderators have allowed you and the others to so derail it....

    :saz: is this really the way MAP is run? :Aegis: as a bashing ground for anyone whose opinion you disagree with? do you always ignore the argument so you can attack the person?? i wonder why that is all i have seen you do as far as antony is concerned....


    how about you reiterate what your issue's are with antony's findings, instead of tip toeing around and calling names?
    i hope that isn't to much maturity for me to request of you.
     
  3. benkyoka

    benkyoka one million times

    Me want schnoo schnoo!
     
  4. Nojon

    Nojon Tha mo bhàta-foluaimein

    May I interject and ask, Mr. Or Mrs. Arteanor, that you learn to use the quote function, so when you are spouting, it is at least neat and tidy, and easy to read?

    Please and thank you.:)
     
  5. Manga

    Manga Moved On

    Artesian Well said - "i will however defend research, especially when it is being ignored so that you can attack the researchER..."

    So you're defending his multiple and proven counts of plagiarism. Good to know, it helps us know what kind of person we're dealing with :cool:

    "and who is dodging questions now?"

    Not me. I'm not aware of any questions outstanding that I am personally required to answer. I've voiced my opinions, provided evidence where necessary to back up those opinions and done the same for my claims that Mr Cummins has plagiarised the works of others. I don't think there's anything left for me to add.

    Keep trying though, you amuse me :hat:

    And the more we talk about Antony Cummins, the more the name Antony Cummins will appear in Google searches so that when people want to know whether Antony Cummins is a respected researcher, then those people will find that Antony Cummins is not very well respected at all. As a friend of Antony Cummins, I'm sure you're proud to stand next to Antony Cummins, isn't that right? ;)
     
  6. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Thats a very good point about Antony Cummins. Thank you for reminding me, Its also pertinant on a thread, about Antony Cummins, to consider the google ranking of said Antony Cummins thread when involved in disscussions about Antony Cummins.

    AntonyCumminsAntonyCumminsAntonyCumminsAntonyCumminsAntony Cummins,
     
  7. Arteanor

    Arteanor Valued Member

    i said nothing to that regard, i referred to your contention with his research, and where exactly have you "proven" anything? i haven't seen a scan of the bibliography, that would clear it up rather well.... get me one with the "plagiarized's" name absent and we can say it is as you claim...

    good, then DITTO.

    so you consider a source that does not even directly quote the person you seem to think is the topic of this discussion, can be used to show his position?
    try keeping yourself to what you can prove the person actually said, not what a reporter said he said....

    and since you have been invited to discuss your gripes with his research, and haven't, i guess we can agree that you do not have any, in which case, what's it to you?


    and what will google say about manga? ah right, you have no stake, as you are anonymous, so you hide, and continually libel the author a book you cannot find an error in.

    and who said i was a friend? do you always go so offbase with your assumptions?

    as a strawmanning asshat im sure your proud to stand neck deep in a pile of your own bovine's fecal matter, spouting lies, and claiming them to be multiple and proven.

    if you don't have an issue with what he says, why are you crying for 49 pages of posts???

    isn't it kind of an admission that you, manga, are entirely unable to provide any evidence to show his claims to be erroneous??

    and if so, then is your ranting and libel not just a desperate cry to cover that inadequacy?

    i think you would be better served in dismissing your emotional attachment to whatever preconceptions you have about shinobi...

    since i have shown repeatedly that the topic is NOT as you say, and that you are as far off of it as you can be without leaving the site... i think i am done here.

    if you DO however manage to find something you disagree with ( and are able to cite a source for) i would LOVE to see it.

    if you can't even read my name, why should i believe you can read what your even typing...

    and seriously, learning how to construct an argument without fallacious logic would be a great idea.
     
  8. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Interestingly nothing that Anthony Cummings has said so far is really new, however his misunderstanding of the context of the martial arts he actively teaches is more the problem those at MAP were dealing with.
     
  9. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Valued Member

    Hi Arteanor,

     
  10. The Unholy

    The Unholy Banned Banned

    The lack of training he did in Japan kind of shows that he takes the easy route to pad his resume. That does not bode well for the translation coming out. Add to that the plagiarism issues and the lack of understanding of the subject matter shown in the pages posted by Manga and if really makes me say that people should buy the translation coming out next month instead.

    As for sharing my work with anyone, why should I let Anthony steal my skull sweat? He has done a lot of that so far, why should I give him more to steal?

    As for the team thing, we have doubts about the veracity of the situation as he presents it. All we really know is that Anthony does not read Japanese, he is not using a professional translator, he has not published anything in peer reviewed journals on the profession of archeology he claims and his work in other works show a very low level of understanding of ninjutsu and its history. So we look on his comments about the shoninki as probably being more of the same low quality.
     
  11. EWBell

    EWBell Valued Member

    I highly doubt that Mr. Cummins trained at all with the Genbukan. Plus, you aren't allowed to sit and watch a class at the honbu dojo. ;)
     
  12. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Anteater, I have continued to post responses to Anthony Cummin's research(and lack of martial ability-which for some reason you think has no bearing on his research on martial arts) and pointed out that his annoying accent, poor fashion choices, etc. have no bearing on the conversation.

    I am confused, so please explain how someone who has a limited knowledge of a language, history, and "martial arts" of a country can suddenly be considered knowledgeable about these topics? The fact is that the demonstration videos he posted on youtube is enough to show that he knows nothing about martial arts. The pseudo-academic videos he has made and the things he has wrote on this forum show that he is lacking the historical understanding, and language ability to translate anything related to Japanese martial arts(武道・武術・武芸・兵法 etc. which sorry to say does include ninjutsu).

    You, like Mr. Cummins, continue to claim things like:

    There is no martial art in ninjutsu

    Hatsumi Sensei is making everything he teaches up

    But what proof do you bring to the conversation? What Japanese sources have you quoted? Sorry, but the Iga Ninja museum is not authority on ninjutsu nor a nationally recognized verifier of martial artists. It is a tourist trap created in to capitalize on the interest generated during the 60s ninja boom.

    Please mention scrolls,books, pages, or experts in the field who you have talked to to prove what you asserted. Not that these topics are the gist of this thread, but if you are going to bring them up, please be more precise in what you assert(since you seem to be familiar with the concept of libel, it might be a good idea).

    Regarding certain organizations that you claim verify koryu groups, please show where you got this idea, as well as proof as to the reason why they wouldn't let Hatsumi Sensei join in with their reindeer games. If you were there, you will be able to do so. I have talked to someone with firsthand knowledge from the people involved in this oft discussed/debated happening, and what I was told is very different from the internet version that you will probably try to produce as your proof.

    Since you are the one making claims, the onus is on you to back up your arguments with proof. Remember innocent until proven guilty. It's funny that you request others to live up to a certain standard when debating Anthony(a poor excuse for a martial artist who doesn't know Japanese) but don't apply the same standards when talking about a Soke of several Japanese ryu.

    Now, there is a foreigner who can't speak/read Japanese, shows poor martial ability, can't prove what he has studied but disputes the martial art of someone he claims to have learned from(that of Hatsumi sensei, who he claims to debunk but then tries to use his taijutsu techniques in his videos), etc. who is claiming to know the history of ninjutsu and who sells videos and teaches his own brand of martial art.

    Even if you want to separate his martial arts with his research(both of which were being critiqued on this thread and something you clearly haven't understood), a lack of ability in one does reflect on how people perceive the other. A lack of ability in both makes everything the person says suspect.
     
  13. Please reality

    Please reality Back to basics

    Oops, I meant has written... Let me add. Aunt Eleanor, I will ignore the fact that you cling to the use of the word Shinobi, and instead of assuming you are in cahoots with a certain Mr. Anthony Cummins, I would like to ask you what assumptions you feel that people here are clinging to?
     
  14. kikentai

    kikentai Valued Member

    Anthony Cummins probably is arteanor and his sock puppet.

    It isn't going over very well. Learn to use the shift key.
     
  15. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    What we need to do here is not fall into the trap of talking about hatsumi and his history again, I anteator wants that info he can stroll through the ninjustu section and take a look.

    Anteator, can I just remind you that this thread is about shinobi soldiers and Antony cummins and nothing more, it's here for us kids to party with his life story and find all the blatant holes in his life and work, which to be honest seems like a bit of a harvest to us on here, a real bounty of information.

    If I were you id go back and read some of the questions we want replying to not the other way round, I personally asked 3 simple questions that were never answered that I'm waiting for, as someone said earlier all you have done is raise this thread up again for us to add another 10 pages and to keep it higher on google than his own work. And please try to use the quote button efficiently as your posts are becoming super dooper boring.
     
  16. RhadeConstantin

    RhadeConstantin King of Badasses

    Antony's responsible for more ad hominem attack's here than everyone else combined. Same with the strawmen. he thinks asking questions from the shoninki proves that he is qualified to write on it. I guess I could post questions from a book on philosophy and that would obviously mean I have a PHD in philosophy right? maybe you should read more carefully before commenting.
    and conjecture? not at all we know for sure that
    1) Antony's lake teacher did not exist, or was a fraud because the amatsu have never heard of him. his other teacher lives in another city. Antony is the first martial artist ive met whose teachers either don't exist or live in a different city.

    2) Antony was pretty much lying about his experience in the bujinkan and genbukan. I'd put up screenshots of him saying on youtube that he'd got oral ranks then later saying he wasn't a part of the bujinkan at all but they were removed

    3) He has mostly plagiarised his information and that too from questionable sources. Francois Lepine? I mean cmon. seriously. It also proves that Antony doesn't have any real knowledge of his own since he needs to copy what others have done (incorrectly) before him.

    4) he launches into vicious personal attacks when asked to defend his claims


    His skill level has to do with his marketing himself as a martial art instructor and duping his gullible students. Also interestingly forget the shoninki he can't even read an ordinary japanese newspaper. his low skill level also shows how fleeting an involvement he has with ninjutsu which doesn't exactly place him in the position to write a book on it. try to use your brains before commenting
    arty.

    well he's claimed to be involved in the translation on his youtube jaunts, and the only reason he's part of the team is because it was his idea, kind of like the runt getting to play only because he owns the baseball bat not because he is good. He has no knowledge of japanese, no knowledge of ninjutsu, atrocious english, and a penchant for lying and falsifying information. I don't see how he's going to be contributing to process.
    How about the fact that in all of your trolling sessions you recommend that people watch shinobi soldiers many many times? so its not an unfounded accusation.


    "
    Yeah. and the media was talking to him, not making things up. Antony even goes on to say that its forbidden by hatsumi sensei and tanemura sensei to train with each other but he did it anyway. We know now that was a lie. Also Antony kept making weird claims about being a 4th dan and a 5th dan and occasionally claiming that he had oral ranks. the fact however is that he doesn't have any rank and nobody at the bujinkan has ever heard of him.

    This is a response to Antony's initial personal attacks. Antony had previously lied that Manga ( I'm sure you know her by now) was being continually warned for lies and bad behaviour sometime later a mod stepped in and basically told antony to stop lying.Also asking antony to back this rubbish of his up basically makes him accuse you of being a homosexual. dam i wish those screenshots were still here.

    Note the word IF. It's easy enough to understand right? and besides we now know this is true because Antony has admitted the only japanese he knows was what little his girlfriend taught him.
    the plagiarising lying fraud who makes up teachers and "facts" warning people about fake ninja master's? oh the irony.:rolleyes:


    On what basis is he making this series? his skills have drawn criticism from everyone. not just here but on an unconnected WMA thread too. maybe he should practise a bit more himself before deciding on whose the greatest.


    again. fraudulently running classes.


    talk about strawmen. where exactly were takamatsu and hatsumi sensei drawn into this. incase you don't understand it's more about the Antony's false claims. and you accuse the people here of making up strawmen.

    and you know whats best of all? Arteanor himself has no experience in martial art's whatsoever. he hasn't trained a single day in his entire life yet goes around mouthing off like he's an expert. its interesting how the less knowledge people have the more they talk.

    Also Arteanor the reason people here aren't answering you is most probably because they're too busy laughing at you to pay attention. you've obviously just skimmed over whats been written and launched straight into a passionate defense of Cummins.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  17. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Please note I have added quote tags to show my quote separate to yours.
    It’s easy enough to do you just put the following in brackets; quote = user name and /quote at the end of what you are quoting, again with [ ] surrounding it.

    Right someone has already mentioned there might be problems with your dates, I know very little about the history of the Bujinkan ryu so I’ll leave that to them.

    However, imo, I feel that you can’t just write that off for the above reason and here’s why.

    There is a separate issue of if documentation has been produced to corroborate the ryu-ha and I do think it needs leaving for a different discussion; you want to do that fine knock yourself out.

    With that aside there are a couple of things to consider I suppose with regards to what you’ve said above.

    When did the system develop and when did it come into being as a ryu-ha?

    Karl Friday mentions something along these lines about Kashima-Shinryu, that is existed for a while before it became a ryu-ha or regarded itself as such, he mentions something like that in comparison to how long it has existed it being a ryu-ha is “new”, it’s been a while since I read that so keep that in mind I could be wrong, I’ll have to have another look.

    Now this is purely me thinking out loud now nothing more, just throwing ideas out there, to make a point latter on

    Togakure-ryu could of just ambled along doing its “thing” using whatever methods it did back then up until this “merger” with Gyokko-ryu & Koto-ryu, which by all accounts are linked schools anyway.

    Just because according to you it pre-dates these ryu-ha that doesn’t discount the possibility of it incorporating their methods at a latter period in its development.

    An “embryonic” form of Togakure-ryu could of existed back to its “claimed” founding date, in what form this was who knows, this is all guess work on my part. My point is at what point did it become, assuming everything is above board, a ryu-ha per se? Is there a point where those involved in the school say “this is when we “became” as opposed to “this is where we started out”?

    Get what I’m saying?

    There’s a lot to take into account and one of these things is how the ryu-ha in question perceives itself.

    A friend of mine was recently chatting to someone from some kenjutsu school or another, sorry can’t recall which one, and he questioned what had been said about the point of origin of the school, that it was very old, if what they were claiming was true.

    Their response was something like “well our waza can be traced back to that date so that’s when we see ourselves as starting.” Now they didn’t exist as a ryu-ha back then but they can trace back their techniques to this point and so that’s when they see themselves as having begun.

    Am I clear or talking nonsense? :)

    Again this is one of the points I have been trying to make and where Ninpei came unstuck.

    He’d basically taken the approach of “Katori says X therefore because Togakure-ryu says Y it doesn’t exists”.

    Which I’m sure you’ll agree would be problematic he was viewing anything that didn’t take the same outlook as Katori as being invalid, that’s just silly.

    Now discount Togakure-ryu due to lack of documetnation etc but don't discount it based on that type of reasoning.

    This is why I asked him about “Ninjutsu” in the various extant ryu-ha that have it as part of their training.

    Again he was unable to answer this.

    I provided an example of “how and why” katori see the Ninjutsu they do the way they do and asked him to compare it to Ninjutsu in other koryu, he didn’t bother with a response and my guess would be because he hasn’t actually gone to anywhere else.

    This is a problem as he is painting with extremely broad brush strokes which is a unadvisable thing to do with classical Japanese martial arts, systems etc

    Each have their own individual flavour and outlook and while you can look at one and perhaps, as Dr Friday says, see the “physiology” of the arts as a whole, you do not get an understanding of the “anatomy” of each one all just by looking at the individual.

    It’s like looking at a dog to try to understand the human body, yes both are mammals and from that you can see commonalities but you can’t learn about the human body form a dog.

    Oh that’s not me comparing anyone school to a dog by the way lol :D :D



    See my points above.


    Didn’t ask about Manga I asked about me because you said we’d all proved you right in our recent posts.

    Ninpei has made some pretty glaring errors let’s be honest about that.

    For a start he didn’t even know the position held by Otake sensei and when I pointed this out the without blinking started changing what he said from that point.

    Then we come to the part where he either hasn’t been able to answer my questions or has not understood the responses he’s got. Please check out his “Ninja lock” comments etc.

    This is why I have asked the questions I have and why I feel he lacks a certain grounding in the subject.
     
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  18. Arteanor

    Arteanor Valued Member

    rhadeconstantly


    where is the passion? i think you should read more carefully, calling for academic scrutiny, and actual showing of actual proof BEFORE accusations are leveled is all i argued for, seems you need to do less skimming for ways to paint your opponents position for him, and more reading of what i actually say. there is no reading into my words, they are as they are, and chosen carefully.
    i suggest you review what the OP set the topic as, and stick to it, the shinobi soldiers book/series. he didn't even NAME antony, and this has become a libel fest to defame him... do you people really respect/value MAP that low, that you would abuse it to abuse someone? and just because he has a different idea than you... and some proof to back it.

    so how about i level it again here, since i have asked you for months, where is the evidence for the claims you have made?


    does nobody see the MASSIVE error in saying "you dont claim ninjutsu skills? you MUST BE WRONG,( unless you say what i want to hear....)"

    does everyone forget that Draeger has NO ranks in ninjutsu, yet is a respected historian on the subject, and in all matters of bujutsu IMO.
    had to do it, too big a logic hole not to poke at.
     
  19. Nutjob

    Nutjob Jimmy Tarbuck

    Where is his proof? he is yet to back anything up IIRC.

    Months? i thought you only started last night??
     
  20. Dean Winchester

    Dean Winchester Valued Member

    Draeger held license in Katori.......

    If I recall correctly.

    Also what work did he publish on it (Ninjutsu)? Just out of interest.
     
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