Shinken Taijutsu?

Discussion in 'Ninjutsu' started by lalom, May 18, 2006.

  1. saru1968

    saru1968 New Member

    Originally Posted by gmunoz
    My original question was about comparisons and contrast of BBT and this new Shinken Taijutsu that Legare Shihan has been given Menkyo Kaiden in from Soke. Is this an new art, or a "modernized" version of BBT? Don't see the need. Is this something that Soke has invented? Just looking for some clarification.

    As Xen suggested, email the guy, see what he says.

  2. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    i met phil shihan today, he seems like an "I'm bored" kind of guy. funny. he looks like popeye the sailor lol.

    lets see
    phil is "popeye"
    dale is "the highlander"
    nagato is "joe higashi"
    andrew young is james bond[the sean connery version]
    hatsumi is a marshmellow
    hahhahahhaha... i dont know...

    argg i feel like a have a block in my head; my distancing was way below par today and i was 2D. toooooo much CO2 i tell you; hazards of work plus being sick. :bang:
    Last edited: May 20, 2006
  3. lalom

    lalom Valued Member

    Then why are you even on here Big M? Nobody is gossiping. My original post was a valid question. If you don't have a knowledgable answer then, with all do respect, don't repond. The reason for my question is to find out answers, not to gossip. We are on an internet forum to find out if anyone knows.

    Shinken Taijutsu, then, is specialized training in the strategies of war. Then this is not BBT. It is a different art.
    Last edited: May 20, 2006
  4. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    From my understanding, Phil has created specific techniques for the use of things like the collapsing baton and OC gas based on his Taijutsu experience. It is nothing that other people in the Bujinkan don't do, but he has specific methods.

    Of course, that is just what I understand from conversations. I can be wrong. As others have said, e-mail him and see what he says. I think you raise a good point about how his web site should be more clear in what it is and why you should get it instead of just doing Bujinkan.
  5. Kogusoku

    Kogusoku 髭また伸びた! Supporter

    Dave, my guess since it's budo, 真剣体術 (しんけんたいじゅつ) Shinken can mean real sword, but in contemporary Japanese, it can also mean serious.

    The contemporary usage comes from the term "Shinken Shobu" 真剣勝負 which means live blade match/duel and the seriousness of the consequences.
  6. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Thanks Steve much appreciated.

  7. BlazingKickz

    BlazingKickz New Member

    What I find funny is a bunch of 7th Kyu < 1 year expirence calling one of their shihan suspect.

    Please Leave the Bujinkan. Thank You.
  8. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Well that would depend on what exactly is being called in to question.

    Specifically, grade or experience only counts in relation to a person's ability to judge if technique is "suspect" (to use your words) however; people don't need to spend much time in any art to realise if the person teaching is presenting *themselves* (not necessarily the waza) in a way which raises their eyebrows.

    I'm a dan grade of some 18 years experience and that affords me a degree of ability to look at another aikidoka and assess if what they're doing meets the quality expected of their particular grade in Aikido (in general terms) however; I know knack-all about Ninjutsu but, if that person conducted him/herself in a manor which I considered inappropriate or "suspect", my actual experience/grade would have absolutely nothing to do with my ability to apply common sense.

    I've met a number of so called "shihan" from within aikido and other arts who, frankly aren't worth the bandwidth required for discussing, doesn't mean their waza is bad (although often that is sadly the case) but more often than not, their ego has got the better of them.

    And just as an aside question; I'm confused why there seems to exist the kyu/dan system which stems from Kano Jigaro (judo) which apparently co-exists with the old Menkyo licensing of Koryu arts.

    I'm also confused why someone given the grade of judan-go and Shihan as his official position, also holds Menkyo Kaiden, it just seems odd that both systems are being used together when one or indeed the other suffices.

    That's like me holding a Sandan and a Chuden Menkyo ??
    Last edited: May 20, 2006
  9. Shinkuri

    Shinkuri New Member

    Phil Legare lives and trains in Japan. That costs money. He sells his services so he can stay in Japan and train with his teacher. What is suspect from that? The fact that he has a special certificate in Shinken Taijutsu? He is not the only one. Jeffrey Prather has one also.
    If you knew who these guys were and there personal histories, you would know both of the them are highly trained military men with extensive exprience in war. Shinken Taijutsu is not a seperate art "made up" by Hatsumi sensei. It is a reconition of applicable taijutsu in those military arenas.
    Hatsumi sensei feels that Phil is emminately capable of teaching this "flavor" of Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. From my personal training with Phil, Phil emphasises shinken very much in his training, something a lot of Bujinkan dojos either are unaware of or don't train.

    Instead of trying to tear down Phil on-line you should be flying to Japan or joining one of his seminars abroad. Phil is the real deal people.
    Further more his training emphasizes his respect for his teacher. Phil will tell you that Hatsumi sensei kicks his ass constantly. That says a lot considering his actual battle experience.

    Now, what exactly is being called into question? His ego?
    Just because the man has an impressive resume doesn't make him egotistical.
    Last edited: May 20, 2006
  10. Dale Seago

    Dale Seago Matthew 7:6

    It doesn't exactly. For the Bujinkan itself, see

    They do coexist in the sense that Hatsumi sensei has given Menkyo Kaiden licenses in specific ryu to certain of the shihan in Japan. Thus, you may have a (Japanese) jugodan in the Bujinkan in Japan who also happens to hold Menkyo Kaiden in, say, Takagi Yoshin ryu.

    To the best of my knowledge Sensei has not given Menkyo Kaiden in any specific ryu of which he is Soke for many years, and this "Shinken Taijutsu" is not one of those ryu. What it really means is probably best learned directly from the recipients (Legare & Prather, as earlier noted).

    I can at least tell, you, though, that "shinken" is not used here in the sense of "real sword". ;) I think it's worth pointing out, because Sensei also gave a Menkyo Kaiden in "Tachi Waza" (the sword this time) to Arnaud Cousergue of France the year before last:

    Again, though, it is not for any specific ryu, even though Kukishinden ryu was a major training focus for that year.
  11. Dave Humm

    Dave Humm Serving Queen and Country

    Step down off your high horse fella. :rolleyes:

    If you re-read my post you will clearly see I haven't mentioned Mr. Legare at all anywhere... That's because I wasn't specifically discussing him or anyone in particular. I was however presenting a point of view which emphasises the fact that RANK and EXPERIENCE have no bearing on a person's ability or indeed god given right to question something which that person feels; using BlazingKickz's words is considered "suspect".

    I also expressed my own experiences with some people who use the title of Shihan, again I neither referred to Mr. Legare or anyone connected with his art or indeed the Bujinkan, in fact I actually referred to "aikido and other arts" I suggest you're reading far too much in to my words.

  12. ChrisMoon

    ChrisMoon Valued Member

    It may be unusual but it has been done in some koryu. In Bichu-den Takeuchi Ryu there is a three-tiered ranking system. There is the traditional menkyo ranking, a teaching license , and a dan grading format. Each serves a purpose.
  13. Grimjack

    Grimjack Dangerous but not serious

    Just FYI,
    Phil Legare has a good job working for the American goverment in Japan. He won't give details, but everyone who trains with him knows it. AFAIK, he does not make enough money off of his Bujinkan stuff to make much of a difference.
  14. Existence

    Existence Super Saiyajin :o

    running a forum with up to the minute video feed of whats down in japan; he should charge people their blood.

    you can't expect people to do everything for free. Money is time my friends

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