Seo family in the Royal Court

Discussion in 'Kuk Sool' started by jamesdevice, Sep 25, 2012.

  1. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Your two main points are exactly what I was implying.

    1) Family membership can be clouded by the circumstances. There can be more going on than what we normally think of a family lineage....which includes sisters, half-siblings, adoptions, slaves, infidelity, debt-service and barters.

    2) As for my insistence of mitochondrial is precisely because they are followed from the MATERNAL side that I believe it is more accurate. Studies have shown that up to a full 10% of children born worldwide were not raised by their biological fathers...even though they thought they were. Perhaps the mom slept with the proverbial milkman or mailman etc etc etc. But children almost always known who their mother is...outside of the rare "switched at birth" occasions.
  2. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    But that wouldn't matter would it? Its the passing (or not) of the tradition through generations of purported descendents which matters.
    There may well be a bit of partner switching there somewhere - we will probably never know. I can't see any current family members agreeing to DNA tests and anyway where are the historic samples to test against??
    But what is important is the passing on of the tradition from father to purported son. Or grandson
    Of course what you suggest could explain - for instance cases where the eldest son/grandson was overlooked.........but going down that route is entering into scurrilous Murdoch territory. Best not to go there, as we would be entering fantasy land

    But all this is a total distraction
    The family legend says theres a handed down tradition
    We've found something external to the WKSA which may back that up. The big question is - can we find anything else?
  3. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    Maternal lineage DOES matter because it would not surprise me one bit if someone, at one point in time, ingratiated himself into the Royal Court lineage via a mother (thus, through marriage) somewhere up the family tree...and used this deception as a means to propagate a historical connection. Now take that and expand it to even modern times...if you thought the Suh children were all from the same parents, you'd be wrong.
  4. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    Not sure I follow your logic there

    However what IS fact is that one of the 17th Century queens was from the Seo clan...... can't find the reference now, I'll look again later
  5. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

  6. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    great article jamesdevice! my teacher is a namweon yang, so its pretty cool to see how at least some of his ancestors are from powerful military families.
  7. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    I hate to be a party pooper and interrupt the martial arts fantasy drama with facts, BUT ......

    There are now well over 73 million people living on the Korean peninsula. There are only a little over 200 sir names currently in use to be divided among these 73 million people. You do the math.
  8. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    I was implying that there could be some half-truths out there due to unrecognized maternal lineage. For example, and this is only hypothetical...

    Suppose 20 years from now, SJS, Alex and George are all Grand Masters. SJS may say he had some lineage to monks and their MAs, Alex may say he has some lineage to the swordsmen of the Jeonju Yi clan and George may claim neither is true.

    How do we reconcile this? Who is lying? Well, they may all be telling the truth. How? Although they all share the same father, they all have different mothers and it may be that genealogical trace of their maternal sides may support their claims.


    This is why IHS claiming Royal Court lineage while ISS denying it may both be correct. That is why I was interested to know what the other siblings had to say on the matter.
  9. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    OK, I see what you're getting at now
    Given the death rate in a medieval society, what you suggest wouldn't surprise me at all - but it still should not affect the way in which tradition and training are handed down through the "family" - but it depends on how close you mean when you say "family"
    An interesting comparison could be with the Scottish clans, where male children of the clan leaders used to be farmed out to paternal uncles or other relatives to teach / train in martial and life skills. Some of theme became closer to their uncles / aunts than their real parents

    In an environment like that, losing ones parents to battle or illness would have been a regular happening, and adoptions or step-parenting within the clan common.

    I had what may be an interesting insight into this years ago when my brother married a Chinese girl from Hong Kong. She was attended by her (Chinese style) "godmother", who was regarded as a full member of their family despite not being a blood relative at all. I forget the exact association -it may have been that she went to school with the real mother, or something like that, but during the ensuing conversations it was clear that the concept of "close family" as meaning only blood relatives, was alien to them.

    PS - part of my confusion over what you were pointing at was that I wasn't aware ISS denied the Royal Court links
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2012
  10. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

  11. ImaJayhawk

    ImaJayhawk Valued Member
  12. SsangKall

    SsangKall Valued Member

    nice find jayhawk! now there is probably a link... but i still think the mugwa records would be the best bet to figure out if grandpa seo was truly a teacher of the royal court, because his rank should be posted
  13. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    Hey I am related to Adam and Eve does that mean I am related to VM? AAAAUUUGGGGHHHHHH! I will never be the same........:evil:
  14. VegasMichelle

    VegasMichelle Valued Member

    This is what happens when someone deletes posts...making portions of the replies noncoherent. JTMS posted (before he deleted) that his GM, ISS, made this claim.

    As usual, whenever a thread is started and a topic is being discussed and theories and opinions are shared....somebody tries to detract from it and start a flame war.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 29, 2012
  15. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    OK, thanks for explaining that

    Ironic isn't it? First conversation on here for ages and it gets derailed by idiot posts. No wonder the forum is withering
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2012
  16. JTMS

    JTMS Valued Member

    Hmmm .... Don't you think that referring toTulsa as an idiot because he chooses to use a little humor to make a point is going a bit to far?

    IMHO the GM's Seo/Suh should be admired and respected for their FANTASTIC marital arts skill, creativity, and leadership ability. We don't need to remember these men for a nonexistent connection to the Korean royal court. It is simple, Kuk Sool is the invention of GM's IHS & ISS. I am a student of GM Seo, but I also have great respect for his elder brother.

    I can also understand the desire of some young people to confirm some of the more romantic histories concerning Kuk Sool. Believe what you wish, but Grandfather Suh was never connected to the Korean Royal Court in any way. This information has been personally confirmed to me by family members, and residents of Bussan who are older and actually remember the facts.

    To argue over things such as this is simply silly. Believe what you will, but I have no need to view my teacher as a god or descendant of a royal court officer. I can admire GM Seo for the truth and for the man he is, not some false family history.
  17. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    No just a simple fact and using humor to make my point. It is not from whom you come from it is whom you are. I do not care if GM Suh, or Seo comes from people that might have taught the royal family or whom ever. I can claim that I am related to Adam and Eve so to that point I am also have blood ties to the Suh and Seo families. Do I care, NO!

    The humor is we are ALL related in some way. Does that make you any better of a Martial Artist? NO! Does it make you know more? NO! It is what we do in our own lives that make the difference. With all the internet and studies from all around the world does it not seem that everyone has more knowledge of Martial Arts at their finger tips then GM Suh did when he "MADE" Kuk Sool?

    Respect is earned by your own actions not by your Grandparents.

    So VM if you think it is a bad thing to be related to me then to bad. It is a fact that we ALL share some DNA! :evil:
  18. Frodocious

    Frodocious She who MUST be obeyed! Moderator Supporter

    Mod Warning:

    If people continue to make personal attacks and petty digs at each other action will be taken. The thread may be locked and bans handed out.

    We also request that people think very carefully about what they post before they post it. We ask that people don't delete or massively edit the content of their posts (the odd spelling or grammar error is fine) once they have started to be included in a discussion. It throws the whole thread off and makes it difficult to follow what is going on.

    Thank you for your co-operation with this. :)
  19. jamesdevice

    jamesdevice Jötunn

    OK, I'm going to try and stay within the borders of taste for this post, however its hard as some of the issues raised in the last two posts require a degree of robustness in the response

    First, I did not describe Tulsa as "an idiot". I merely said that this thread had been subject to idiot postings. A very different thing: the most sagacious person can often make mistakes of judgement and post in error, or in some other cases post with the sole reason of discrediting a thread. I would like to think that the latter was not the case here, however maybe others can judge better. Either way, the posts served no purpose to the thread and were simply "noise".

    Next, JTDS states "Believe what you wish, but Grandfather Suh was never connected to the Korean Royal Court in any way. This information has been personally confirmed to me by family members, and residents of Bussan who are older and actually remember the facts."
    In that one sentence he condemns IHS to the status of a liar. The statement that IHS is descended from an hereditary warrior family attached to the Royal Court has long been established as a "fact" on the website and other documentation of the WKSA. JTDS, by his statement is saying those claims are untruthful.
    The corrollory of this has to be that the man who JTDS describes as "should be admired and respected for their FANTASTIC marital arts skill, creativity, and leadership ability." Is compromised. Either he is a liar, or JTDS's communicants are misinformed. Or maybe JTDS has his own agenda. I don't know which, but clearly something somewhere is misdescribed.

    Next, both JTDS and tulsa declare their lack on interest in this subject. Thats fine, they are entitled to their views. However I would have thought it incumbent on anyone who wishes to teach what are supposedly traditional skills to be able to understand the origins of those skills, from where they arose. To my mind, a teacher who is not interested in the subjects history brings into question his dedication, knowledge and suitability for the role.

    Others clearly are interested, so I would politely ask JTDS and tulsa to kindly go their own way and ignore this thread - unless they have something constructive to offer. Perhaps an explanation of the logic by which IHS is forced into the position of being a discredited liar would be a good starting point? Note that I do not call him a liar myself - I just merely request an explanation of why JTDS should think he is.
  20. tulsa

    tulsa Valued Member

    jamesdevice, The reason I first posted on this thread is for the fact that there is NO WAY anyone can really know what is the truth vs the lies. For this reason I personally think that the actions and the person makes the Martial artist not the linage.

    When people get out of control and can not see what is right in front of them someone has to put a road block up to have people refocus on what is at hand.

    On the subject of why i do not care is the simple fact of since we can not really know for sure what is the truth then let's look at deeper into the GM'ers that we are talking about. Did they put together ALL the information for the style or did they have help? Did they design the Hyungs by themselves? Did they allow others (not blood related) to influence the association and influence its direction? There are a lot of questions that are being side stepped that are important to the main theme of this thread.

    Even if the Suh and Seo families have ties to the Royal Court so the do thousands of others. So what did the GM's learn from their relatives vs what they learned from other Master? Does not GM Suh say he was taught by his Grandfather for on a short time until his death. And since he started when he was very young he was very young when his Grandfather died. How many of you all on this thread really learned everything from just your family? Did you not go to school? Did you not learn from coaches and others outside your family?

    Here is my short and defiantly not complete history of training: I spent 5 years of one minded focus on how people learn and developing my skills in teaching methods used through out the world. I then I searched the MidWest of America to find a teacher to start learning Martial Arts from. I found a couple that took me in and almost immediately saw my talents and took me under there tutelage. I stayed with them for several years while I introduced to Well known Master and GM Masters of Martial Arts. I would learn just one thing sometimes from each Master. But after over 30 years of training myself I decided to go out on my own. I have several books and information given to me from 1000's of Masters and GM's. I have unlimited access to even more.

    See anyone can make there lives seem more than it is or less then it is by focusing on only certain details. This is why I do not care. But for HISTORY, I would love to have a Martial Art kinda Family tree of the Suh and Seo families, that in accurate and detailed supported by sworn statements and paperwork backing up all claims. But I do not see this ever happening. :evil:

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