Self Defense-Are People Aware?

Discussion in 'Self Defence' started by 47MartialMan, Jul 7, 2016.

  1. Dead_pool

    Dead_pool Spes mea in nihil Deus MAP 2017 Moi Award

    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  2. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    I'll do my best!
  3. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I think the first thing you need to ask yourself is why you need self defence training and what you want from it.

    Self defence means different things to different people.

    It may be that you want to defend yourself, your loved ones or your property.

    It's no good booking a Geoff Thompson Animal day type of course if a mother and daughter type course will serve you better.

    Self defence is often about empowerment, so if you are running a mother and daughter type course then how much physical work is there against classroom practical advice work?

    It's no good doing a Krav Maga type approach for a class full or 50 year old mothers with their 16 year old daughters/sons.

    In this case some basic centre line principles and padwork with eye, throat, groin and shin strikes may be the better option for half the lesson, with the other half given over to practical advice.

    The last female only course I did there were handouts with practical advice. The type of stuff that seems obvious, but is often overlooked.

    The type of advice that is easily passed on to friends and family.

    For example did you know that in the UK the motorway phones don't have a ring tone, so it's easy to think they don't work?

    Don't sit in the front seat of a taxi, as there is only one door out.

    All simple stuff, but that may be all you need.

    If you feel you want something a little more I think it's important to understand the difference between martial arts and self defence, and we cover that in this thread.

    On MAP we always advocate the instructor is legally underpinned.

    For example I was at a self defence training day and one of the participants was in a scenario where they lashed out at another thinking they were defending themselves.

    It wasn't until the video was played back to them and the scenario and legal aspects explained to them that they realised no physical action was called for and in this case they were going to be seen by everyone in attendance that they were the aggressor.

    There are lots of SD (self defence) videos on You Tube that look as though the participants can handle themselves, but they are going physical before any attempt at de-escalation.

    De-escalation should be at the forefront of any good SD course.

    I'd ask 47MM if there was any de-escalation explanation or practice at the seminar he attended.
  4. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    That was an excellent post Simon.

    I think the classroom style self defence/protection class which focuses on sound practical advice, legal information, verbal de-escalation advice etc is what I would consider most appropriate for my needs and I really liked your mention of delivering a course that fits the needs of the participants in terms of their age, physicality and lifestyle.
  5. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Without that, it can be worse than useless, it can be dangerous.

    In an ideal world, all training would be bespoke to the individual.
  6. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I agree.

    Many people go about their lives with no thought of self defence, or certainly not on a conscious level.

    They'll walk around the house at night and make sure it's locked, they'll not walk through strange places on their own or at night, they'll not unnecessarily hold eye contact with strangers and so on.

    It's all natural to them and done without thought that doing otherwise may cause them to defend themselves.

    Doing a martial art can have the opposite effect. Paranoia can set in and you start either thinking that you can take the extra chance because you are trained, or you don't enjoy yourself when out because you may have to defend yourself.

    There is a saying in martial arts that you learn to fight so you don't have to, but unless you are training under pressure you'll never know if you have it in you to do so.

    If you want a SD course that exposes you to pressure then choose something that does so safely.

    Whether the class uses something like the bulletman suit, or Spartan armour make sure it's available.

    If it isn't then you'll be pulling your punches and kicks and the attacker will have to simulate being hit.

    In my opinion this definitely detracts from the realism of an attack.

    A good attacker has you scared just by the words they use and the physical threat they look like they can deliver.

    It takes training just to be able to remain calm in that situation and possibly years of practice.

    Ideally you want to reach the state your untrained, non worried friend is in.

    The state that allows you to go out without worry.

    You though want the advantage that you can fight, but don't (hopefully) have to.
  7. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I was talking more about the advice and information side of things, but I totally agree about having to get over possible paranoia in the first few years of training.

    Not so sure about the armoured suit thing. I can see that if you are taking self-defence classes without doing a separate martial art, but boxers, MMA fighters etc. seem to get pretty good at fighting without ever suiting up. Having said that, I've never had access to full body armour, so I can't pretend to have a qualified opinion about it.
  8. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    There is a lot I dislike about what I see in terms of the physical components of self defence training. Two pet peeves are bullet men scenarios that instill a dangerous false sense of security in the trainees through totally unrealistic physical pressure and the other is max force responses trained with zero pressure.

    I think the best thing for short course would be appropriate tactical considerations building on common sense and some limited pre-emptive striking and positional escapes. Regarding the physical side I think that takes longer entrainment under progressive training programmes, building towards very limited rules full contact work over a much longer period than a short course can offer.

    I agree that bespoke training for everyone in all contexts would be fantastic.
  9. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    I do think some PPE is necessary.

    Yes boxers and the MMA / Thai guy do train with more contact than a lot of other martial artists, but it isn't the same as facing a violent onslaught from one or more attackers.

    In addition they don't train full contact all of the time. It just tends to ramp up when training for a fight.

    Some protection allows for full contact scenarios. It doesn't take the sting out of the shot, but does protect against cuts*.

    *That is unless you take a shot from bassai. :D
  10. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    And they wear headguards, shin guards, gloves, trainers wear belly pads :)

  11. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    If high gear cost as little (relatively) as gloves and shin pads we'd all be in 7th heaven.
  12. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    I've used all that stuff too, but it isn't the same as several people suiting up, is it?

    Plus, JWT has said that head shots still need to be pulled to a certain degree, and certain head manipulations can be more dangerous with the suit on. It's all different compromises, isn't it?
  13. Knee Rider

    Knee Rider Valued Member Supporter

    It'd make full contact sparring safer at a higher frequency. I don't know how the head protection compares but hard sparring in that would certainly suck less than it does with gloves, shins, headgear and gummie!
  14. Dan93

    Dan93 Valued Member

    I found it also opened up use of other weapons i.e. headbutts into live training that I could not do realistically in normal training so that is something else to consider. This was in JWT's Spartan Armour with I really enjoyed using, I have also done bulletman courses but I feel the Armour is too bulky to be truly realistic. The head is massive so really doesn't promote accuracy IMO.

    Well overdue for another DART course.
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2016
  15. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Don't get me wrong, I'd love to give Spartan armour a go, but there is no such thing as a fully safe way to go full pelt, and every training method is a different set of compromises. As Ap says; it's all about the triangulation :)
  16. Simon

    Simon Administrator Admin Supporter MAP 2017 Koyo Award

    This is true, but it should be a consideration when choosing SD training.

    If you truly want to understand how to deal with a violent situation you need to be exposed to it and that means using specific types of equipment.

    Even crash helmets (which I occasionally use) have their limitations and I've been in sessions during my JKD days where someone has had their jaw put out of alignment and required a hospital visit.
  17. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    They use protective equipment appropriate for the situation. :)

  18. Mitch

    Mitch Lord Mitch of MAP Admin

    Sim day in October, but book soon, places are going fast :)

  19. Lotus Flower

    Lotus Flower Moved on Supporter

    David I'm interested in doing a self defence course with a couple of friends and have had a look at your website.

    It says you teach an incredibly sophisticated self-defence system, but reading through the thread many people advocate the use of armoured protection, which you say you don't have.

    How do you protect your students from savage, stunning strikes (it says that on your site)?

    As someone new to martial arts this is confusing when your site says this:

    I'm confused as to what I should be looking for. Somewhere with safety equipment or somewhere else.

    I'm not looking to take down the local thug, but want to know what I spend my time and money on is worth it.
  20. David Harrison

    David Harrison MAPper without portfolio

    Firstly, I have no part in the website. It is produced by my instructor and the central organisation.

    I do not own any armour personally, but I am not the only instructor. Although I don't believe any own a full Spartan suit, I have seen them use body armour. Having said that, the definition of "self-defence" is not set in stone, and although other instructors are qualified to, and have, taught standalone self-defence courses, what I teach would simply be called a "martial arts" class by the accepted definitions of this website. Others, because we train purely for real-world encounters and not for sport or cultural/historical reasons, may well decide to call that self-defence to distinguish it from the typical learning-a-foreign-language-in-pyjamas image of martial arts.

    Personally, we do it the old fashioned way. You start off slow and gentle and build up to hitting each other with light gloves on. I do not teach any short courses, so you're looking at anywhere between 6 to 18 months before getting to that stage.

    I'll be honest, I find that paragraph very confusing too :)

    It depends what you want out of the course.

    Where are you in the country? If you are genuinely interested, then I suggest you email the address given on the site for enquiries. Perhaps there are enough of you for the organisation to resurrect the non-member self-defence courses.

    The first thing I think you should look for is the instructor's qualifications. I believe they should have more than a hobbyist's interest in self-defence, and should have both paper qualifications and professional experience of implementing those skills in a real world environment. Expensive equipment is nice, but I believe it is secondary to knowledge and practical experience.

    I'm sure other MAP members can give recommendations if you are interested in a short self-defence course. I think it would be unanimous around here that John Titchen would be your first port of call:
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2016

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