Self-defence teaching in TKD -trends research

One thing I'd just like to say, Thomas you are a 2nd Dan in Hapkido, so surely you are fairly confident in using locks and throws/hapkido techniques?


I personally don't have much experience so I learnother techniques which don't need as much accuracy.

 

How do you train to actually do eye strikes so that you know you can rely on them when it comes to a real situation?

 

I seem to remeber Andy Murray mentioning something about his club using Goggles or some such to at least emphasise the difficulty of trying to hit an area that small during sparring.

The point is you aint ever going to be able to train anything "realistically" unless you do it. That means training eye gouges = poking peoples eyes out

 

I know exactly what you mean as regards twisty wristy. It comes back to what I call the Bruce Lee syndrome. That when you learn martial arts, you can immediatley punch through walls and with a simple flick of the wrist disable your opponent.

We learn, and I teach, no nonsense stuff, almost entirely unrelated to "traditional" TKD. Three focus areas, eyes, throat, groin. Anything else is a bonus.

For a double lapel grab, the idea is to get the attackers head pushed back so we can get his hips forward and his arms straight. How we do that is to push at the eyes with the fingers, push at the throat or plam heel to the face. (violently) Once the hips are forward the groin is exposed and a good knee there is always good. When the arms are straight, a round sweeping motion with your arm across your body (inside to outside, like crescent kick) can easily knock the attackers hands off and then its your turn to beat, or run.

Thats one but we teach lots more from the same situation so that we can adapt. the problem with the wrist twists and the like is the variables, there are too many. Who knows the type of clothing, the weather (has it been raining, will his wrists or your palms be wet?) arm strength etc.
If one move fails will the student freeze having failed at the one thing they know and make the attack worse again?
Some of that is all very well for the advanced guys, but what about the person who walked in off the street two months ago?
I suppose what I'm saying is that in my opinion, the simpler the better.

Dang this was too long, my boss is going to kill me......... lucky I know self defense

 

I trained for quite a while in Taekwondo before I began training in Hapkido. Elements of our self defence techniques were very similar to some Hapkido techniques and eventually my master got more involved with the Combat Hapkido system (www.ichf.com) which we integrated into the TKD self defence curriculum. I left to train in Korea and when I returned 4 years later, Combat Hapkido had become a larger part of what we do, and my master began offering classes in it as well (By that point he had been in it for about 6-7 years).

As far as using joint locks and throws... I like them and I have found a few that work really well for me. I also found many I don't like. Regardless, on all joint locks/traps/throws, you must train for the situations where it doesn't work... whteher from a counter, slipping, or sloppy technique. Without practicing that (and often), you may have a nasty surprise when trying to use them.

 

Yeah, I don't get many opportunities to train with joint locks/traps/throws. I'd like to, but I'll leave it until I'm a black belt.


when I know them in the lesson they are V. effective. But I don't think I know them well enough. I certainly wouldn't try one if someone was being aggressive. I'd just sprint.

 

I'm agreeing with you but perhaps not for the reasons you meant.
I think that is a bit contridictory. How can you say that they ae very effective yet also that you wouldn't try them on an aggressive opponent.

I think that the truth is that they are less effective than you implied and that therefore your comment about not using them is sound judgement.

 

perhaps I should be more clear. I don't feel that I can perform any wrist lock move as a reflex action, I'd probably have to think about what I'm doing and so I'd be better off running away very fast. I think that if I practised the moves regularly and I could perform them without thinking about the move they would be highly effective.

 

I think that you are right about not having the confidence to do them but wrong about them being highly effective.
The reasons that I shy away from them (aside from strong real-world anecdotal(sp?) evidence):
They are usually fine-motor actions which are inherently harder to perform when high on adrenaline/under pressure.
They are often associated with pain-compliance which is a bit unreliable for my liking.
Emphasis on them infers a restraint approach which is risky IMO. If you do need to restrain someone, chokeholds have a better track record.
They are comparatively longwinded. Why not just smack him in the face?

 

Personally, I don't think any of my students would even attempt anything different....

Incoming palm strike followed by an ear piercing,

"Waaaaiaiiiiiiiii"

 

Hiya,

I agree. The lack of knowledge as to practical techniques in some schools is scary i.e., x-block to check a kick whist in walking stance, u-shaped block to 'catch a staff'. We've all seen them.

My opinion is that it all boils to do a basic ignorance of the techniques within the patterns that are taught.

You have patterns that are taught to get the basics right.
You have 3-1 step sparring with 3 and 2 step being so far removed from reality it's incredible (although 3-step is better than 2).
You have the sport sparring, which utilises practically nothing from any of the above.
Then you have 'self-defence' which most likely has some stuff from 3-step but which again, most likely would get you in trouble.

If patterns were taught as ways of remember self-defence moves then I think that TKD would be far better.

For example, Sajo Jirugi 1 and 2 and Chon-ji are full of good wrist locks, throws and counter attack moves as well as chock-a-block with pressure point boshing opportunities, knees, elbows and double factor blocks (if you hip twist that is, add the sine-wave and you've sounded the death knell as far as patterns are concerned).

Anyway, that's the TKD I teach

 

Do San Application against double lapel grab.

Okay,

Do Dan applied to the street against double lapel grab.

[1] Left hand down onto the top of both arms, raking down the arm points and stopping with the wrists trapped against the chest whilst tucking your head down against [1] an attempted headbutt or [2] an inadvetent headbutt as he comes in.

Then either,

[2] Spear tip thrust to the neck making it a grab to the windpipe. You can then basically squeeze until he either passes out or decides it's best to leave you alone

[3] Uppercut (basically the spearfinger thrust with a close fist) to the sternum/their chin.

If it's more life threatening than that continue [2]

[4] Rotate the hand (whilst holding the windpipe) as if you're doing the wrist release (but keeping it high), relax the grip when your hand is palm down and use the knifehand to push into the throat. This should finish them. If not ...

[5] Continue to turn and loop your left hand over their hands and use your body as a fulcrum to lock/break their elbows. You can then throw from this position.

 

Wrist Lock or break?

Bear in mind that a wrist 'lock' is not actually a restraint move. You CAN restrain with them yes, but the whole point of them is to lock the wrist in such a way as to be able to finish the attacker. In this case, to break the wrist. You don't need a lot of pressure to do this and in a fight I think that you may well find yourself slightly stronger and less willing to lock them than usual.

There is no way, unless you're in the Security field, that you should be trying to restrain someone because at some point you're going to have to let them go.

 

I'll break his wrist. Let him cry in pain!!!HA!!HA!!HA!!

 

I learned the "snake arm between theirs (over/ under), clap with other hand and jerk/ twist". However, I will believe that the person isn't going to grab my collar- but my neck. I will not stand there like a complete idiot to wait and figure out what their intentions are- at training you're assuming they already have your collar/ throat- the move is just basic. Body language says a lot. NEVER assume anything- I have a favorite saying that goes to "assume" : assuming makes an a--out of u and me. I'm a "worst- case" scenario gal.

 

Sorry to go around in circles....

The lapel grab is a distinct possibility IMO. Throat grabs can also occur but, anecdotal evidence suggests that this is more common in men trying to KILL women. The defences and concerns are different in either position. It is a bit short-sighted to rule out a lapel grab. Certainly for me, despite (or because of) years of MA, I am now more inclined to simply grab you by one/both lapels (or elsewhere) and headbut you and/or hold you onto my punch. Just because it is 'crude' to us artistic MAists strategies doesn't make it either unlikely or ineffective.

The snakey hands described in the post above is OK to know but rather limited in context IMO. What do you think.

 

Doesn't that sum up TKD in general?

 

Yes. But not if you listen to the advertising bunf. Not that that applies to your club

 

There are so many self defense steps in TKD. like when somone is punching at you. it teaches you to grab his arm twist it and break it over your shoulder then you deliver a elbow and a back fist

 

Please tell me that you're on a wind-up
Is that something you've tried on a resisting opponent who doesn't attack you in a TKD manner?